[Eva Salzman]

I wasn't accusing people on this list: merely saying that the subject seemed to invite personal attacks and anything but a serious examination of the issue. And actually there HAVE been some here but not at me, particularly. You know if people are interested, they'll take the trouble to find out and I'm not always convinced these forums are the best means for anything. Thanks for responding.

[Jan Iwaszkiewicz]

Seek and ye shall find, knock and a whole pile of other knockers will jump on your wagon.

The ‘isness’ of the lack of gender balance in poetry means no more than that there may be a problem, the ‘whyness’ of gender imbalance means all.

To take the ‘isness’ as proof of an assumed ‘whyness’ is to stifle all debate, to stultify reasoned enquiry, to harden true believer battle lines and to leave all moderates seeking shelter between the lines in the land of no man and no woman. The faith of a true believer does not allow the heretical possibility of their faith being false and, of course, there are true believers on both sides.

There are gender imbalances in many spheres of life and in some of them there is no argument as the ‘whyness’ is seen as a given on both sides (and in the middle) e.g. prisons, the Armed Forces etc.

In creativity there should be inquiry (but not exclusively) into art, sculpture, all literary pursuit, invention, chess, pure research of all types and last but not least cooking.

It may be that there is some inherent difference between the sexes that could explain the imbalances. There may also be an inherent division along the lines of Formal/FV or any other poetic polarity. Without reasoned enquiry the debate reduces itself to gender warfare along the lines of blind belief.

[Mark Allinson]

One of the arguments as to why there were fewer women poets in the past was that women had no access (or little) to a university education.

That particular argument is looking more and more shaky lately, when we consider articles such as this

N.B.: "And while there is still a "mindset that continues to see males as advantaged and females as disadvantaged... that is emphatically not the case in higher education".

[W.F. Lantry]

Originally Posted by Quincy Lehr

So, what's the argument about?

(...)

The drop-off of women in poetry probably happens earlier--and, I suspect, is not necessarily or even mostly poetry-specific, but revolves around far more general gender patterns. And I wonder if we're seeking an editorial solution to a political problem.

Quincy

Quincy,

Forgive me for clipping your post, but it does bring up an interesting point. It's good to be doing things here and there, every little bit helps. But I'm no incrementalist, in fact, I'm so impatient I want change *now*.

And even though I do strongly believe in direct action, I realize that lasting change will only come systematically. Which is why I noted with interest this article in the BBC today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/8085011.stm

Female students are ahead of men in almost every measure of UK university achievement, according to a report from higher education researchers.

A Higher Education Policy Institute report shows that women are more likely to get places in the top universities and go on to get better grades.

Women also outnumber men in high status subjects, such as law and medicine.

Maybe we're actually on the road to better things. Of course, I feel like my 13 year old, sitting in the back seat saying "Are we there yet?"

Thanks,

Bill

[Mark Allinson]

Since I just posted the very same link, Bill, I wonder if you either missed it, or whether I am on your killfile list.

If you don't reply, I will assume I am.

Which if so, highlights one of the problems with the killfile system - the re-invention of wheels.

In my case I have an informal and automatic personal killfile program running in my head. Sometimes when I see some particular poster or other I know from experience they are almost certainly not going to be saying anything new, so I simply don't read their more-of-the-same-old. I know this is very very wrong of me, but often I don't have time to read the billionth minor modification of the same basic idea endlessly repeated. I suspect everyone else does the same to some degree, and that this causes a few crossed wires when something new DOES actually come up. So a few wheels get re-invented in any case.

And let me propose a loyal toast to Her Australian Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, whose official birthday holiday this is in New South Wales, granting me the time to say such things here!

[John Whitworth]

Girls do better when there is continuous assessment. Boys do better when there are end-of-course exams. The British system used to have end-of-course exxms (which i was good at). Now it has continuous assessment (which girls are good at). Of course continuous assessment encourages continuous cheating. No, I am not suggesting that girls cheat more than boys. Almost certainly the opposite is te case. But it is probable, because of this large-scale cheating, that the British system ill go back to end-of-course exams. And then, presto, the boys will do better. You wait and see. Incidentally I did cheat (a little) in my end-of-course exams. I wrote quotations from Edmund Spenser on my wrist. How else would I ever remember this most forgettable of poets?

[W.F. Lantry]

Originally Posted by Mark Allinson

Since I just posted the very same link, Bill, I wonder if you either missed it, or whether I am on your killfile list.

Whoops, missed it completely. Second time in a week. Either I need glasses, or I need to make the text on my screen even larger.

Or maybe I just need to go for more walks in the forest.

And geez, cheer up a little, will ya? I'm on the other side of the world, but even from here you sound just a tad grumpy...

Thanks,

Bill

[Mark Allinson]

In my case I have an informal and automatic personal killfile program running in my head.

Yes, I know what you mean, Paul. Many of us know by now where others are coming from, so it certainly does cut back on unnecessary reading.

But as I said before, apart from posts which re-say the already said and cause a fragmentation of the board, I am very happy to have intolerant members block my posts.

And I am sure it will cut back on retaliatory posts on TDE, where political comments on GT adversely color the reception of poems. So that's a real bonus.

I wrote quotations from Edmund Spenser on my wrist. How else would I ever remember this most forgettable of poets?

Now John, when it comes to offensive statements on the board, this is sailing very close to the wind!

I would rate Edmund Spenser as one of the truly great poets of the English tradition, and his influence on those who followed has been immense.

We must have a thread on Mastery one day, and I will prove it to you, along with the two or three members who can still read my posts.

===========

Edited back to add:

Thanks, Bill!

I am glad to see I was wrong.

The principle still applies, though, I think - if members block posts that sort of thing will become a regular event.

Girls do better when there is continuous assessment. Boys do better when there are end-of-course exams.

In NSW we have a combination of continuous assessment and external exam for the Year 12 HSC. Girls beat the boys handsomely in both venues. Look at the photo here:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...740239427.html

Here's a list of first-in-course HSC 2008: a quick browse will show that girls are winning more high places than boys. Other lists at the same site show the same thing.

http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au...IC_2008_12.php

But fewer girls sat the HSC to start with:

http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au...CN_2008_10.php

I believe this trend is world-wide. It's probably a conspiracy. Either that or, given an equal field, girls work harder and prepare better, among other things.