[Janice D. Soderling]

Don't feel obliged to commit to a definition on my behalf, nor certainly my interpretation of Bill Carpenter's attempt, but he alludes to this as possibly being one of your 'first principles':

"It seems that a certain peaceful just, transnational order is the highest desideratum. This should be achievable on a democratic basis, but not until populations are sufficiently enlightened to know that this is best."

Whomever the proponents of this might be, it reads to me like a whopper of an until. How do we prove our deservingness after self-determination has been relinquished to this transnational order? What precedents are there of bloodless reverse-devolutions of power at the first signs of popular maturation? The problem of course is that the vanguard never self-dissolves --without coaxing. And given the perfecting of surveillance technology, dissolution seems even less likely in the years ahead. If globalism truly succeeds at becoming global, where will the exogenous counterforce march from should things veer dystopian?

Norman, the first criterion for critical thinking is to go to the first source to verify the veracity when a second, third, etc. source or hearsay claims that X has said Y, or believes Z, or supports A, or is a fan of B. Do not believe it until you hear it emerging from the horse's mouth.

The first guideline for rebuttal is to be aware of the straw man trick. Straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.

Sorry.

[Andrew Mandelbaum]

Originally Posted by Steve Mangan

I'm a gay man living in Turkey -- a secular state but predominantly Muslim, and never felt happier or safer. At home in England I was thrown out of home at 16 for being gay, homeless for several years, I suffered regular beatings, was stabbed and hung and left to die, my dog killed and mutilated (parts of his body still stuffed in my coat pockets by our attackers when I left the hospital), when I got a home was victimized and my property vandalized. Me and my partner of 25 years have never suffered as much as a bad word since we moved here, 11 years ago -- and the (muslim) community and (muslim) friends are the most genuine and supportive of people I have ever known.

Thanks for sharing that Steve. I am sorry about your dog-person. That sort of hatred must destroy the soul of the perpetrator.. It is cheering to hear you have found a place on the earth among muslims that is free from that sickness. Salut.

[Ed Shacklee]

Originally Posted by Steve Mangan

I'm a gay man living in Turkey -- a secular state but predominantly Muslim, and never felt happier or safer. At home in England I was thrown out of home at 16 for being gay, homeless for several years, I suffered regular beatings, was stabbed and hung and left to die, my dog killed and mutilated (parts of his body still stuffed in my coat pockets by our attackers when I left the hospital), when I got a home was victimized and my property vandalized. Me and my partner of 25 years have never suffered as much as a bad word since we moved here, 11 years ago -- and the (muslim) community and (muslim) friends are the most genuine and supportive of people I have ever known.

It keeps coming back to how kindness given and kindness returned are such devastating answers to cruelty and fear. It's the story's end we've longed for, ever since we were kids: that we lived happily ever after, or at least tried our best, and so did our friends, and our friends' friends, and so on and so on, which of necessity includes everyone in the world. "We must love one another or die," Auden wrote.

Ed

[Janice D. Soderling]

Thanks, Steve, for sharing that. I am glad to hear that you have found a safe haven and good life. There are good and bad people everywhere. More of the former, I believe, than of the latter.

[Janice D. Soderling]

Do you know if your country has ratified all or parts of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? And if it has not, how does that affect your safety?

Added in. The "you" here is a general "you", i.e. anyone reading. Not pointing a finger at any one country. My point is that many think their government has backed human rights but it might well have refused to ratify the article that allows girls to go to school, that prohibits torture, that ensures its citizens the right to criticize their leaders.


https://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/resear...n-index.html#S

[Martin Rocek]

A statement by the US Holocaust Memorial Museum:

WASHINGTON, DC—Acutely aware of the consequences to Jews who were unable to flee Nazism, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum looks with concern upon the current refugee crisis. While recognizing that security concerns must be fully addressed, we should not turn our backs on the thousands of legitimate refugees.

The Museum calls on public figures and citizens to avoid condemning today’s refugees as a group. It is important to remember that many are fleeing because they have been targeted by the Assad regime and ISIS for persecution and in some cases elimination on the basis of their identity.

A living memorial to the Holocaust, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum inspires citizens and leaders worldwide to confront hatred, prevent genocide, and promote human dignity.

http://www.ushmm.org/information/pre...yrian-refugees

[Michael F]

Yes, Martin.

And the calls to refuse all immigration into the US strike me as sadly ironic, or worse, given what I suspect is the preponderant role the US has played in causing the crisis.

[Ed Shacklee]

The American-flavored paradox of muscular Christianity flexes its large, ugly biceps once again -- much to the chagrin of many, many Christians, I would guess.

[Ann Drysdale]

Ed, I hope your guess is right. I recall the frisson of horror that followed GWB's announcing a "Crusade" as a response to the Twin Towers attack.

[Bill Carpenter]

Ed,
As the pop classic says: "... put a little love in your heart./ And the world / will be a better place..."

I'm afraid too many people in high places take American exceptionalism to mean immunity from common sense, natural law, and karmic consequences. It's supposed to go the other way, with our government by the consent of a moral majority (a republic not an empire) enabling us to curb the appetites of the mighty.