[David Landrum]

Originally Posted by Clive

when certain groups' privileges are a) pointed out and b) challenged then there is a tendency on the part of that group to circle the wagons because of the discomfort this arouses.
side?

When groups are "challenged" they may protest that the challenge, and may object to charges that they are guilty of oppresion or unfairness or discrimination. Are such allegations automatically valid because someone makes them? And, more importantly, because they are committed by a member of one group (white males) does that mean all white males are complicit? I think that's why some of the men on Erastosphere reacted to what they see as an unfair generalization.

dwl

[Clive]

Originally Posted by David Landrum

When groups are "challenged" they may protest that the challenge, and may object to charges that they are guilty of oppresion or unfairness or discrimination. Are such allegations automatically valid because someone makes them? And, more importantly, because they are committed by a member of one group (white males) does that mean all white males are complicit? I think that's why some of the men on Erastosphere reacted to what they see as an unfair generalization.

dwl

There are ways of challenging allegations that don't rely on people getting all het up and ranty.

[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

Originally Posted by Mike Todd

But does that mean that writing must be solely avocation or vocation?

Not at all - I'm simply saying that regardless of which it is, or what the pecentage of time we'd like to devote to it, it's ultimately our own responsibility to find the time for it.

I know personal stories are being frowned upon, but I know that speakinig for myself, I wrote a lot more when I was a single mom working two jobs and supporting three kids than I do now that I'm married to a wonderful man, down to one not-quite-full-time job and have no kids left at home.

Sometimes the more time and support you have the easier it is to procrastinate. If you know you're going to have time to do it tommorow it's easy to wait for tomorrow, if you think these may be the last 10 minutes you'll find, you tend to use them.

[David Landrum]

Originally Posted by Clive

There are ways of challenging allegations that don't rely on people getting all het up and ranty.

I certainly agree on that. Keep the discussion a discussion.

dwl

[Eva Salzman]

Jan, Can you explain what you mean by this? It makes no sense to me. What failures? Whose failures? I have no idea what you mean

"Eva I could catalogue a thousand excuses for my failures but they mean nothing if I do not accept responsibility for them."

When you return my comment with your own about your experience, you mean your experience of over twenty years as a women freelance writer?

First you said facts and figures were needed. Then when I said I could supply, you show no interest in them and indeed say they are insufficient!

Apart from this, these go with a 25 page essay giving exactly the background and explanation you require. You say you don't know the reasons for imbalance but others might. Have you read these others? Don't you want to?

[Eva Salzman]

David,

Had meant to reply to you to say that my sense is that the inequalities in both literary world and more generally are more prevalent in the UK. I'm from NYC, grew up there and have lived over 20 years in the UK. This sense is often confirmed by others I know who straddle the two places.

The attacks this subject invites was precisely part of what I addressed in my essay: here Clive points are very relevant. This is bad enough. But those who are presumably on this site or others like it, presumably interested in the subject, are not interested enough to hear from those in best position to present not just facts and figures (now that these are inadequate) but their context, which kind of invalidation speaks for itself, and indeed might offer precisely clues to the problem.

[W.F. Lantry]

Originally Posted by Eva Salzman

Does not my lifetime as self-supporting writer allow me to speak with some authority as both writer and woman? Not just of my experience but that observed and heard from other writers?

I have to strongly agree with Eva on this one. I view the idea "anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron" as essentially a white masculinist concept. In other contexts and other cultures, personal testimony or even "testifying" is viewed in a much more positive light. Many in this thread have done very well at 'positioning' when making statements, but we might all do well to question our underlying assumptions about the means of argumentation.

Many others have pointed out the fallacy of using statistics, which are by definition nonartistic proof, so I'll leave that one where it lies, although a similar prejudicial intent may apply.

Thanks,

Bill

[Jan Iwaszkiewicz]

[quote=Eva Salzman;111067]Jan, Can you explain what you mean by this? It makes no sense to me. What failures? Whose failures? I have no idea what you mean

"Eva I could catalogue a thousand excuses for my failures but they mean nothing if I do not accept responsibility for them."

In terms of the time and support needed to be writer it has everything to do with writing, believe me. Not seeing the importance of this is part of the problem.

Eva I respond to the above, whether I have support or not is an outcome of my life decisions and I must accept responsibility for for any failures on my part and not sheet them home to my partner in life.

Eva you said further in response to me:

So glad to hear about exceptions. I'm afraid that the both anecdotal and statistical evidence points to this situation being the exception. .

Ignoring the anecdotal, does the statistical evidence directly address the poet community given that community is a minority? If it does I am very interested as I am sure all would be here. If it does not then it is skewed and its relevance is suspect

When you return my comment with your own about your experience, you mean your experience of over twenty years as a women freelance writer?

No, of course not, unless you feel that there is a gender inequality in the need for support. I merely stated that my time is proscribed but I do not seek to blame external factors for what is ultimately my own life decision.

First you said facts and figures were needed. Then when I said I could supply, you show no interest in them and indeed say they are insufficient!

No as I said above, if you have any facts that are directly relevant I would be very interested as would many here.

Apart from this, these go with a 25 page essay giving exactly the background and explanation you require. You say you don't know the reasons for imbalance but others might. Have you read these others? Don't you want to?

Again Eva, if it is directly relevant and does not require unsupported extrapolation I would be pleased if you would post a link.

And now please do not think me rude but it is well after midnight here and I have to work off farm tomorow and will not be back for 18 or so hours.

Jan

[Jan Iwaszkiewicz]

Bill I must reply to your pejorative intimation that I am some some

masculinist supremist

The rules of evidence in all civilised countries do not allow anything but direct anecdotal evidence (maybe I should have qualified that earlier but...) all else is hearsay and is only good for whipping up fervour.

...and so to bed

[Eva Salzman]

The issues of time and division of labour have taken over here and while these things are very relevant, I thought the primary discussion was to do with literary world, minority or not and to do with publication figures for men and women. I can post these certainly.

As for other comments about taking responsibility, these have not yet been explained adequately, what this has to do with the principles at hand.