[Mark Blaeuer]

Maryann,

Perhaps I’m atypical, but I’ve never felt insulted by the presence of notes. If it turns out that I already understand the passage, then reading its corresponding note gives me the additional pleasure of feeling superior to the anticipated audience. If the passage baffles me, then I’m glad to have a handy reference.

Of course, you could make a list of all the bits you’re considering endnotes for, then Google them. If a section’s potential obscurity is clarified by said oracle, you could dispense with the note. Folks who don’t have access to a search engine at home can often access one at the local library. However, many genuine poetry lovers—especially the older ones—are not computer literate, I suspect, so you’d have to decide whether you want to exclude them. Poetry books sell slowly enough as it is, so you may not want to risk alienating anyone who seriously appreciates verse.

Anything with non-Germanic, non-Romance letters, you can’t easily Google. Yes, I had to learn the Greek alphabet in college, and when I sound out a Greek word, it’ll sometimes suggest a root that I recognize as being from Greek, thus enabling me to reasonably guess at meaning of the text. But what a tedious process! (I’ve been reading a lot of MacNeice lately, and I sure wish he or an editor had included translations of his Greek phrases in the edition I have.) And Chinese, Arabic, etc. bamboozle me without notes, companion volume, or gloss.

I wonder whether it makes a difference how many books you’ve already had published. I mean, to an editor judging whether to publish your manuscript. It could be that many such editors consider it presumptuous for a first-time author (no matter how many magazine or chapbook credits you’ve had) to “show off” with endnotes. I have no clue about that.

Mark

[Jayne Osborn]

John said:

I've never been either to Corfu or the East Coast of America, though I do know they exist. However, I have been to Mousehole, Bogshole and Corstorphine and I bet few of you can say that, or even pronounce them.

And that would make an excellent note. I shall just have to write the poem that goes with it.

I know how to pronounce those places, but our friends abroad probably wouldn't know that 'Mousehole' rhymes with 'tousle'. Near here are two villages called Bozeat and Cogenhoe, pronounced locally as 'Boze-yut' and 'Cook-ner'.

Sorry for going off-piste slightly, Maryann, but these place names demonstrate that some help is often needed, and should be offered. As Mark says, it's fairly easy to look up certain things; I never mind checking something in the dictionary but I don't want to have to do major research to find out what a phrase in a poem means!

"If in doubt, help the reader out." How about that for a rule of thumb?

[Maryann Corbett]

Further thanks, and a report: As I put together the notes I think are needed to help the reader, I learn things about the collection, or about my tendencies, or both. A lot of biblical allusion. A lot of Latin.

Not that I didn't know I use these a lot (duh) but when the notes are all together on the page, the tendency looks a lot more concentrated than it seems to be in the poems themselves. And I'm concerned that some kinds of "concentrations" could count against a collection--which means I have doubts about it that I didn't have before. Ah well.

[Jayne Osborn]

A lot of Latin

Then please add those notes, Maryann. I've forgotten most of the Latin I was taught.

[W.F. Lantry]

Originally Posted by Maryann Corbett

So I'm just as uncertain as ever...

Interesting discussion. I'm not fond of elitism, but I'm also not fond of anti-elitism. Someone I deeply respected used to walk out of poetry readings if the intros were longer than the actual poems. You could read the impatience on her face. An old teacher said "Assume an intelligent audience," and I kinda liked that. It's also true that, in this age of google, any phrase I don't know I can look up at my desk.

On the other hand, when I love a book, I end up reading everything. Even the copyright page! So some people will love notes, and some will frown, depending on their *own* predilections, and nothing will change those.

But here's what I miss: One seldom sees, these days, any kind of poetic statement. I don't know why this is. Frank O'Hara once wrote, in a very funny piece, "It's all in the poems." But of course it's not, and people lacking a sense of humor take his jokes as serious statements, without realizing *they're* the ones being mocked! Others avoid them, I suspect, because they're worried they'll say the wrong thing. Others worry they'll end up looking foolish. But I really *want* a note from the author, describing what she's doing, or trying to do, or what she believes art is. Kate just sent off some poems, somewhere, and made me write the ars poetica they requested. She said "She said "Stop watching that football game, and give me 125 words. Right now!" Which actually is about the word count of a sonnet, and how long can 14 lines *really* take to write? Knocked it out at halftime...

So here's my crazy view. Endnotes are optional. But a poetic statement should be required. I know that sounds nuts, but just knowing it sounds nuts may mean I'm not as crazy as I seem...

Thanks,

Bill

[Duncan Gillies MacLaurin]

Originally Posted by W.F. Lantry

Others avoid them, I suspect, because they're worried they'll say the wrong thing. Others worry they'll end up looking foolish.

You're right, Bill. But I think it's also very much a question of what is customary.

Often a writer will only be asked for some kind of comment on his/her work if/after it has made a significant impact, so presenting your own ars poetica, uninvited as it were, might well come across as being a tad presumptuous.

I would like to promise to include an ars poetica in my next book-length publication, but, uhh, should I include it with my submission or wait until they've agreed to publish my work? (Slippery slope, see?)

It's weird how a field with such extravagant potential can get dulled down by conformity and norms.

Duncan

[Julie Steiner]

It's far less trouble for know-it-alls to skip the endnotes than it is for know-nothings like me to try to reconstruct omitted information...especially when poets don't even provide enough keywords for us to be able to Google things.

Let's say that a poet is using (or, more frustrating still, altering beyond recognition) a rarely-used poetic form. How the hell am I supposed to look up a form whose name I don't even know?

It's a Catch-22: in order to Google it, you have to already know it...in which case you don't need to Google it.

Patronize me. Please.

[Gail White]

John, you will really impress me if you can say you've eaten stargazy pie.

As for endnotes, I've never used them, but next time I'll think about it. As Oscar Wilde once said, it is difficult even for the most modest of us to remember that other people do not know quite as much as one knows oneself.

[Jehanne Dubrow]

Since my first book is mentioned in this discussion, I thought that I would jump in. I certainly wish that fewer readers needed explanations of words like "Tashlikh," "mama-loshn," and "daven." Wouldn't that be nice?

Niestety (as the Poles say), when one writes a poetry collection with a particular cultural, religious, and linguistic slant, some notes become necessary.

Notes are especially necessary if you are sending your manuscript to book contests where the first-tier readers are graduate students. As the former administrator of a major book contest, I can tell you that it's a good idea to underestimate a reader's knowledge (at least initially). Notes can always be removed from a manuscript once the book has been accepted for publication. At that point, "to note, or not to note" becomes a matter of personal taste.

[Allen Tice]

John, the east coast of North America (south of Canada, north of Mexico) does not, alas, exist. You are misinformed. What people think is there is entirely a creation of the University of Chicago school of criticism, made up to serve as a straw bugbear. (Just like the San Francisco Bay area poets and Berkeley were made up.) I should know: I get mail via New York on the "east coast". It's dreamlike.