[Luigi Coppola]

Just to lower the tone...

A Limerku

So often at spring;
cow bells ring, birds chirp, frogs burp,
lambs play, children sing.

[nyctom]

dogwood petals snow
well-worn paths to playing fields
seniors count last days

*

moonset, and morning
—late again—rushes to catch
the last train, workbound

*

heavy with the weight
of rain, leaves uncup their drops
new hats of newsprint

*

streetlights
outshine
Orion

*

coal lump falls, shirking
its sweater of clotted red thread
grey will hem it in

[Lee Gurga]

Sory I haven't gotten back to this sooner, but here goes . . .

Curtis, I agree with your assessment . . . in your rondeau, "haiku" qualifies as an adjective but not a noun. Generally, effective haiku poems (as opposed to haiku stanzas in longer poems) rely on imagery, rather than statements for their magic. Also, they are normally able to stand alone, which most of these wouldn't be able to do.

RCL, I agree that your "Messogiorno" are not haiku , but terza rima and nicely done.

Alan, I think your "Hobie Haiku" are fun. Generally in haiku, shuch blatant punning is avoided, especially where the pun is in danger of becoming the point of the poem. I find the last works best as a haiku--it has a very nice feel. I will look forward to your next half hour's work!

Robt, Probably not. In general, the best haiku present two images and allow the reader to interact intuitively with them. A more (rationalistic) western approach presents one image and adds a thought or comment on the image to complete the poem. "Show don't tell" is the haiku way.

Lee

[Lee Gurga]

Alan, it is not really an issue of abandoning. As you probably know, there is traditionally no punctuation in Japanese, so it would be more "traditional" not to use punctuation in haiku. Japanese has "words" that make up part of the "syllable" count that take the place of some of our uses of punctuation in the poems to divide the images or add weight to one part of the poem. (That is why if you want to use "traditional" form, you should also count each use of punctuation as a syllable!) Punctuation is generally used in haiku when it has something to add to the poem. Dashes, semicolons, and colons are used to separate the images of the poem, depending on the effect one is striving to attain. Periods are the most rarely used of all punction, and only when they have specific purpose, as in the following:

his side of it.
her side of it.
winter silence

Notice that the punctuation becomes a part of the message of the poem, both by its presence and its absence. It is not an empty marker.

All that said, go ahead and capitalize the first letter of your haiku and put a period at the end if you want. Once again, I am not suggesting that there is an absolute prohibition against it.

Lee

[Alan Sullivan]

Yeah, Lee, I knew the pun was over the top, but once I'd thought of it, I couldn't get rid of it; the fit was just too perfect. And I also agree that the fourth is closest to the connected disconnection I found so fascinating in the Basho translations I first read forty years ago.

Alan

[Lee Gurga]

Lo, I think one of the things that initially attracts people in the west to haiku is their perception that it is a blank slate--the spaciousness you refer to. And if engaging with it simply as a form allows one to write fine poetry there is no need to get caught up in controversies over taxonomy. Who need concern themself as to whether the wonderful poems you quoted are technically haiku or not? The important thing, it seems to me, is to accept the gift they offer.

Lee

[Lo]

Originally posted by Lee Gurga:
Who need concern themself as to whether the wonderful poems you quoted are technically haiku or not?
Lee

I didnt quote 'em, I actually wrote 'em..... and since I am currently unable to write anything more than my name on the rent check, I will choose to focus on the *wonderful* and thank you very much.

Lo

[Tim Murphy]

Lo, those are just terrific. The second of them strikes me as being particularly deeply informed by insights into both Taoism and Bhuddism, and I don't think I'm reading too much into it. But the first poem is even more masterful, encompassing as it does, such insight into men and angels--and eagles. I think they're just what I hope to see in five/seven/five stanzas, which might or might not be haiku! Ignorant of the principles that I am, I am just looking for compelling poems, and both of these rise to that very high level. Vis-avis the matter of punctuation:

Count a period
as an extra syllable?
Wind dead on my bow.

[Curtis Gale Weeks]

Thanks, Lee, for confirming my suspicions. I didn't title it "Butterfly Rondeau Haiku" because my process when writing it favored some aspects of the rondeau over haiku, for the general structure, although I also wanted those breaks between image-idea/statement to play a haiku-ish role.

I have a few observations and questions on haiku in general, will post them over in the Haiku Form? thread, but will say here that I appreciate your contributions over the last few days; they've been quite instructive and valuable for my understanding of haiku.

---

Patricia, I've always wanted to experiment more with the combined form, haven't yet taken that leap. I'm glad you like the revised lines--a few other areas might get revised before I set the poem aside forever...

[Patricia A. Marsh]

Oh, don't you dare to put it away forever, Curtis! I won't allow it, young man. I mean: your haiku-rondeau had me struggling for days--two years ago--trying to write one of my own and . . . and . . .[Hrmph!]

P.S.
Would love to see any revisions and/or new work you do using this form, Curtis. [And . . . you can blame the preceding paragraph on the full moon.]