[Julie Steiner]

I usually only log in to post something, and then log right out again. I don't want people to know how much time I actually waste here.

Some of those "guests" in the stats are actually bots, I suspect.

I think the current division between Met and The Deep End would make it easy to maintain a generally-available workshop section and a password-protected workshop section. And if people have to expend effort to access TDE, they'll be thoroughly annoyed if the stuff there is below expectations, so we can maintain the "this doesn't belong at TDE" culture, too. Everybody wins.

[Roger Slater]

The figures for members who are active at any given moment may also be overstated. There are many times that I sign in (my computer does it automatically) and then don't sign out when I'm done. I often leave the tab open on a thread I'm reading and either leave my desk or do other things online on other tabs in my browser. So it might appear that I'm here at the Sphere, but I'm really not.

Again, I think the only argument in favor of making workshop threads visible is the idea that we need to do so in order to attract new members. That may well be true, though I have my doubts. But apart from that, to allow anyone wandering by to read a workshop thread just for sport, having ruled out in advance any thought of posting a comment or critique, is to "publish" our poems no matter how much we may try to convince editors that that's not what's really happening.

[Allen Tice]

Roger's second paragraph just above : totally.

[Michael Cantor]

But nobody seems to care about it, Roger, except for a small but vociferous group pf people on the Sphere, and possibly one or two editors. Everybody else appears perfectly willing to accept that this is a workshop, that the poems are only up for a month or two and often not in final form, that it's a place where poets work on their art, not a publishing venue; and that while the title and a few lines might show up later on some sleazoid leech-site, it has nothing to do with the world of poetry and no connection. That should be the end of the subject. I don't see the need to keep pecking and poking at it until you convince others to take a closer look.

[Allen Tice]

Michael, after your first sentence there's much to what you say above. A great deal of what one worries about depends on what one's goals are, and obviously many people have been happy enough with what they have gotten out of this site. They are likely to continue to do so, and that's fine.

However, looking very closely at something and thinking very hard about how it behaves are not yet illegal. Eratosphere has many facets in the wider world, some not obvious at all. Your final sentence is about as wise as anything I could come up with, and as ambiguous as I could like.

Originally Posted by Michael Cantor

I don't see the need to keep pecking and poking at it until you convince others to take a closer look.

[Roger Slater]

Ultimately, I simply do not like the idea of showing my unfinished work, work which I might possibly decide to burn and pretend I never wrote, to anyone in the world who decides they are curious about me. And apart from comfort there's security, since I have had several of my translations that I posted here stolen and posted for years on blogs (until I finally got Google, the blog host, to remove them). And though maybe you are not in the habit of submitting to publications that are extremely strict about prior publication, others submit to different venues. Highlights, for example, is extremely particular about pre-pub(l)ication, and that is why I no longer post children's poems here that I think I might wish to send them. So you are wrong that nobody cares. I'm not nobody. And I doubt very much I am the only one who would prefer a log-in system of access.

But I turn it back on you. Why do you care if workshop threads are invisible unless you log in? Is there some actual advantage you gain that you are unwilling to give up to indulge the likes of me who have reasons to want it the other way? If you have no reason and you actually do not care one way or the others, why are you not willing to indulge the few people like myself who would prefer a bit more privacy?

[Brian Allgar]

Roger, you are right to insist that one must be particularly careful with poems for children in the context of pre-pubication.

[Julie Steiner]

Typo of the year.

Michael, many of us would love to be able to go to a real-world venue like the Powow River Poets, where we might have an opportunity to receive expert comment in a less public space, but we don't have that option, as you do. Why begrudge us a password-protected clubhouse, for those occasions when we'd like a tad more privacy? I would probably still use the publicly-visible Met board most of the time.

Yes, I do sometimes use e-mail to quietly inflict my shier stuff on people I've met here and whose opinions I respect, but I'm wary of wearing out my welcome with them. One of the beauties of a workshop is that people don't have to feel obligated to read your stuff when they're too busy. They just don't show up.

[ross hamilton hill]

I don't think we workshop poems to gain an "audience," Ross. A workshop is not a showcase,

Roger
I did not say we did, I did not say a workshop is a showcase, stop twisting my words, all poetry forums have an audience or viewers or readers, what else do you call them.
I delineated exactly my position in a lengthy if slightly irrelevant comment about how posters respond to comments made about their poems.
If you have a problem about any of my posts make them to me directly, here or in an email.
I will be happy to argue the toss with you.

Also

"We don't need a 'huge floating audience' of 'idle viewers'

Who are you speaking for besides yourself, do you always use the royal plural. Has it occured to you that 'idle viewers' could become dedicated members, that's how many people find things on the net, do you really want to hide the Sphere away for some precious elite, and then what? watch it wither and die for lack of new members.
Do you really think workshopping a poem on the Sphere is some special event. There are hundreds of poetry forums, all competing for members.

[Roger Slater]

Ross, I didn't twist your words. I quoted them. And I made my points directly to you, so I don't understand why you are suggesting otherwise.

I also acknowledged more than once that a perfectly valid reason to leave the workshop threads open would be to attract new members, so yes, to answer your question, it did occur to me. In fact, that's why I suggested allowing for a guest sign-in.

I'm confused why you are taking such a hostile tone. You're acting like I attacked you personally because I disagreed with you, and it has caused you to disown your own words, ignore what I actually said, and to make snotty comments about my supposed use of the royal we and my dedication to the "elite." I suspect what's really going on here is that I recently failed to appreciate some of the art you posted in another forum, and your feelings were hurt.

But to clarify for your sake, in this thread I only said that we (in my opinion) don't need spectators or an idle audience in the workshop threads, but if people want to sit in and watch what goes on in a workshop thread without becoming a registered member it would be a good idea for the sake of privacy and pre-publication concerns to require them to log in as a guest or register as a member. I never said that worshopping is a special event for the elite, nor did I say anything to suggest that this is what I believe.