[Mark Allinson]

I checked the first two pages of threads in TDE and Metrical. 68 poems were posted by men, 14 by women.

Well, the issue regarding these figures, Michael, will become: Why are women feeling discouraged from posting on TDE?

All you have done is to provide more evidence of the gender war in po-land.

[David Landrum]

Maybe, too, this is the place to bring it up. I clicked on Calls for Submissions on Facebook the other day and the first listing I see is Bone Bouquet: A New Journal of Women's Poetry. Of course, I am excluded from this journal, as I am excluded from Mezzo Cammin, Calyx and others by virtue of my gender. This ethics of exclusion is fascinating. Would a Journal of Men's Poetry even be allowed by today's standards? Here is a case where men are excluded deliberately by the magazine's submission standards, not by a some kind covert discriminatory principle.

[Mark Allinson]

But David, don't you know the answer to that one by now?

It goes like this: men have dominated and suppressed women's artistic creativity since the stone age, and these gender-exclusive books, mags and sites are a type of "affirmative action", to help women catch up.

But I believe that women with guts and talent have always managed to have their say.

Look at Sappho, universally judged (as much by men as women) as one of the truly great poets of all time. Are you suggesting that she was a mere “token” woman poet, and all the subsequent Sapphos in our culture have been denied possession of paper and pencil, or had their work suppressed or destroyed by jealous men?

Sorry, it doesn’t wash.

Why was it possible for a woman such as Jane Austen to sneak out a few well-chosen words, while all of her would-be-poet sisters were suppressed? What nonsense.

Sure it was more difficult for a woman be a successful writer in earlier days – but no more difficult than it would have been in those times for a man to take up knitting or have a career as a midwife: it was not the cultural norm, simple as that. There is nothing more naïve than the current academic practice of critiquing the past with a postmodern eye, and seeing historical cultural norms as evidence of “repression”.

But to say that “the patriarchy” made it impossible in the past for a woman driven by genius or strong talent to find the necessary pen and paper is simply absurd. Are you suggesting that women were not even taught to read and write? Or that since they were denied a university education, poetry was impossible. University education has never been a sine qua non for poetry, even for men. A strong argument could be made for the opposite view (which I hold), that university is more likely to cripple a poet than make one. And if truly valuable work had been suppressed at the time, it would have found the light of day eventually. Why? because things of beauty are rarely expunged from existence by human beings – by men or women – purely on the basis of gender-expectation.

[David Landrum]

I looked back through the issues of Lucid Rhythms and found in the issues that have gone on-line:

August 2007: 11 Men, 14 Women
December 2007: 17 Men, 6 Women
April 2008: 15 Men, 11 Women
August 2008: 21 Men, 10 Women
December 2008: 16 Men, 9 Women
April 2009: 15 Men, 14 Women

I can say--and I hope people will believe me--that gender bias plays no role whatesoever in the selection of poems for the magazine. Poetic merit is the sole guide. It seems I get more submissions from men. Do more men write poetry than women?

dwl

[Quincy Lehr]

Well, I can speak to this from a slush-pile reader's perspective (and Anna crunched the numbers on a Barefoot Muse issue a couple of years back). The disparity is on the submissions end. Looking at the Raintown since 1 May, here are the stats.

Number of submissions by men: 43
Number of poems submitted: 155
Number of poems accepted: 8
Percentage of submitted poems by men accepted: 5.2%

Number of submissions by women: 14
Number of poems submitted: 48
Number of poems accepted: 3
Percentage of submitted poems by women accepted: 6.3%

(This excludes a couple of poems Anna's deliberating over and two submissions I haven't processed yet--both of which came in today.)

The point being that we've been picking based on what we perceive as the quality of what comes in, and even though, on the percentages, women are doing slightly better, it's still rather male-orientated. But if we don't get the subs, what can we do? If you want a more gender-balanced Raintown--send us some stuff!

Quincy

[Jill Domschot]

My problem is TIME. Women are busy creatures. I hate to use a stereotype, but it's true that a woman's work is never done. Many of the most famous female authors, such as Jane Austen, never got married and never had children. By the time I'm done working all day and cooking and cleaning up and putting children to bed, I'm too damned tired to care about poetry. That last part isn't true; I still care, but I suppress my caring because I'm too tired. How do other women around these parts do it? How, how how? The poem I have up on this site currently I wrote five years ago, and it's a newer one for me!

[Shaun J. Russell]

Interesting...nine straight posts by men, versus the one original post by Carol...

Anyhow, I think the reason for less female poets in print is very simple. Like Quincy and David mentioned, they are editors who receive more work from men than women. I think this is due to the fact that more often than not, women are less interested in seeing their work in print than men are. Emily Dickinson is a perfect, if somewhat cliched, example of this: she wrote great work, but cared more about soliciting it to a few friends and relatives than she did about accruing notability for her craft. Men, more often than not have that cocky swagger and bravado about them that makes them want to thump their chest at the prospect of their accomplishments being widely acknowledged. These are hard-wired genetic traits that truly have nothing to do with the quality of poetry itself. You'd be hard pressed to find many men saying that women can't write exceptional poetry.

I, too, balk a bit at journals like Mezzo Cammin and the like, in the same way I balk at journals that state that they will not publish traditional verse / formal poetry. What is the point of cutting down the pool of potential contributors? Is editorial bias not enough? If you want to foster true equality, any good editor should take what he or she deems to be the best work submitted.

[Shaun J. Russell]

Jill -- with all due respect (and I mean that sincerely...not as a platitude), I don't buy the "too busy" argument. I won't deny that women (mothers especially!) are potentially busier than men...but I also believe that "not having enough time" is a convenient excuse. Hell, I've used it myself.

If you're committed to your art, you make time for it. Use half of your lunch break for writing a poem. Wake up half an hour earlier, before the kids are awake, and scrawl a few lines. Buy a pocket voice recorder and orate ideas, lines or rhyme pairings while driving / commuting to work. You can be the busiest person in the world, but there are always ways to make time. You have to make that pact with yourself though -- that you will make time. It's almost a form of self-prophesy.

Let's put it this way: if you have time to read Eratosphere, you have time to spend a few minutes jotting down words or ideas!

[Carol Trese]

As my post said:

To join the Poetic Justice Discussion, please log on at http://z3.invisionfree.com/Poetic_Ju...ex.php?act=idx

I'd love to facilitate a Guerrilla Girl Poets Society. Anyone want to join? I am a fledgling poet, but I am a great organizer and facilitator. I don't have stats at my finger tips: what is the ratio of male to female poets on this board? I do know there are many phenomenal women poets here, and I am sure you have opinions about gender issues. Join the early discussion at http://z3.invisionfree.com/Poetic_Ju...ex.php?act=idx

[John Whitworth]

I have an alter ego, Phoebe Flood, which I have long intended to use to submit work to Mslexia and the like. I have never actually done so because Mslexia doesn't PAY, and I suppose if it did I would blow my cover when I tried to cash the cheque. It used to be possible to set up a bank account under a fictitious name, but now, of course, you can't do it. Could ask for cash, I suppose.

I think that to be a young black lesbian of left wing persuasion would be quite advantageous on the British poetry scene. Why, come to think of it ....