[Janice D. Soderling]

Philip Quinlin said:

I was pretty disgusted with the way 2 mods in particular repeatedly attacked a certain member of this forum for his (supposed) lack of facility in English. It looked like bullying at best and something rather unsavoury and better not named at worst. It was unnecessarily and unpleasantly done in public and, had I been the butt of it, I would have felt humiliated in the extreme. Matteradamn that the criticism was ill-founded and unenlightened.

If members cannot raise concerns in public without being censured (or having their posts deleted) how come mods can engage in this sort of behaviour?

Dee said:

I welcome anyone to review the threads in question.

More precisely, it is found here.

http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showthread.php?t=9473

[Donna English]

Originally Posted by Philip Quinlan

I was pretty disgusted with the way 2 mods in particular repeatedly attacked a certain member of this forum for his (supposed) lack of facility in English. It looked like bullying at best and something rather unsavoury and better not named at worst.

Phillip, I've gotten way harder hitting crits than that over the years. I've given way harder crits than that! Consider this: Dee and Janice called it as they saw it. I and probably some others agree with their critique. It wasn't a plot to destroy the poet's self-esteem. It was an explanation of why the poem didn't work for them. Receiving honest critique can hurt. It's not a beginner forum. The mods are not here to teach poetry, let alone teach the English language. Dee and Janice simply let the poet know that if he really wants to improve his poetry, he needs to master the language in which it's written. Coddling and undeserved praise only drag down the quality of poems and critique. That's a lose lose situation.


Donna

[Roy Hamilton]

I remember when I first joined. I critiqued a poem by an individual with a non-English name. It was beyond the pale. I, trying to be nice, pointed out how difficult it must be to write in a second language. He replied, "but English is my first language." Oooooh, I felt bad. Won't do that again.

p.s. I liked Abid's poem too.

[Adam Elgar]

It may be that there are several strands of grievance that members want to air. Philip's post raises two matters that are probably best kept separate if we are to achieve the clarity and understanding that we all need. It seems to me, (and I think this is the general view of the moderators) that the major current cause of complaint is the deleting of members' posts, and that's a subject which deserves its own distinct discussion.

Philip also brings up the matter of tough critique, and within that of how we approach poems posted by members for whom English is a second language. This doesn't strike me personally as a topic with much mileage. If we post at Erato we expect tough critique. If it hurts, that's an occupational hazard. In the Deep End especially, as the rubric makes clear, toughness is the name of the game. Moderators reserve the right to move posts out of the DE if they aren’t considered up to the necessary level. That’s a judgement call, of course, and there’ll be protests, of course – but it’s going to happen, and we all need to accept the fact.

If a member participates here using English as their second language, that carries its own risks. I can write French and Italian prose slowly and laboriously – I can read both languages reasonably fluently – but the idea that I could participate in a poetry forum in one of those languages is laughable. And I’d deserve to be laughed at if I tried.

It’s an absolute bottom line that if you take part in the work of this site you are a fluent writer of English. There’s no reason at all why linguistic failings should be excused out of some misguided sense of charity. And it’s as well to remember that a characteristic of the membership in all poetry forums is its high density of people who teach English in one form or another – professionals of the language, in other words. They know whereof they speak.

[Kevin Greene]

Originally Posted by Adam Elgar

I can write French and Italian prose slowly and laboriously – I can read both languages reasonably fluently – but the idea that I could participate in a poetry forum in one of those languages is laughable. And I’d deserve to be laughed at if I tried.

Come on, Adam. You could be the next Conrad!

EDIT: Well, you know what I mean. Maybe Conrad wrote poetry... I'll have to look.

[W.F. Lantry]

Originally Posted by Adam Elgar

And I’d deserve to be laughed at if I tried.

Adam,

I'm not so sure about this. Let's turn it around: what kind of person would mock you for trying? How would we best characterize such an individual?

Sometimes I wonder if the whole 'standards' thing isn't occasionally used as a cover for some form of mean-spirited deliberate cruelty, and other times as a form of self-glorification.

And you know better than to poison the well with that "misguided sense of charity" comment. That was beneath you. You're a much better person than that.

If anything, we could use a little more charity around here, a little less self-certainty, perhaps a little more generosity with those who are sincerely trying (which I hope includes all of us). After all, look at where we've come to: it's not as if the calumnious spirit a few have displayed in other forums has led us to a more productive environment.

Peace,

Bill

[Adam Elgar]

Bill, I applaud and endorse your view entirely. I'm not knocking charity, and I'm certainly not knocking anyone's attempt to master a foreign language. Since that's exactly what I'm attempting slowly and painfully to do with Italian, I'd be crazy to mock others doing the same with English.

But the context has to be right. Imagine a group of highly proficient Italian poets participating in an online poetry workshop and producing good quality verse. Along comes an Englishman who presumptuously imagines he can take part in the enterprise too, and starts posting poems and crits in Italian. His posts contain basic errors, his reading of others' poems misses endless stylistic and idiomatic nuances, his own poetry is stilted by the narrowness of expression open to him. Why should the Italians spend time addressing these issues when their purpose is to achieve the highest and most publishable standards for their own work? They shouldn't, and I wouldn't expect them to.

Eratosphere members are entitled to expect a high minimum standard of proficiency in English. I'm not advocating rudeness to non-native English speakers, and I'm not aware that there has been any. But anything less than a native standard of fluency is going to get in the way of the board's reason for existing, which is to work towards professional standards of writing. This isn't a beginner's forum, no matter what language you speak.

Now, if members would like to propose a new board for people who are writing in English as a second language, that would be an interesting idea and (speaking purely for myself) I should think it could be given serious consideration. But I don't know how many people would make use of it.

So I say again, although there is no constitutional reason why members for whom English is a second language shouldn't post their work and crits of others' work, they can't expect an especially tailored response.

On the general matter of critical rigour, tone, etc - there are no easy answers. The moderators have to try and maintain high standards of poetry and criticism within the bounds of civility. If we could always get it right we wouldn't be having the problems that face us now. Our members care passionately about poetry. This can lead to hot debate. Maybe some members care a bit too much about the sacredness of their own views. But these things won't change. All the mods can do is try to be fair, and to be as transparent as is compatible with respect for individual privacy in their management of these tricky matters. And Bill, sane, calm voices like yours are more precious than rubies in times like these.

[Donna English]

Originally Posted by Adam Elgar

On the general matter of critical rigour, tone, etc - there are no easy answers. The moderators have to try and maintain high standards of poetry and criticism within the bounds of civility. If we could always get it right we wouldn't be having the problems that face us now. Our members care passionately about poetry. This can lead to hot debate. Maybe some members care a bit too much about the sacredness of their own views. But these things won't change. All the mods can do is try to be fair, and to be as transparent as is compatible with respect for individual privacy in their management of these tricky matters. And Bill, sane, calm voices like yours are more precious than rubies in times like these.

Adam, I agree. I think when things go sour on the board it's often because personal private matters are taken public. Behind the scene issues should stay that way because airing portions of them publicly invites friends and foes to take sides. The wounded one would be better to enlist the help of their friends privately. Guerilla warfare on specific targets is better than bombing the whole country. The collateral damage is too great.

I think that heated but non ad-hom debate on general issues regarding level of moderation, poetry and crit etc. should be allowed, even encouraged.

[Norman Ball]

When a determination to navigate one another with the greatest care becomes the uppermost concern, art suffers. An overweening self-consciousness is bound to set in. Do our unruffled feathers really have primacy over the words themselves? There is nothing wrong with establishing a social confab where poetry serves merely to facilitate easy dialogue. But it might necessitate a tweak of the guidelines so that the current confusion can be avoided in the future. If words are not sticks and stones with the power to hurt then frankly they have no power. They are pabulum.

Poets must be steel magnolias, not wilting flowers. Let those unwilling to risk offense take up baking or busy themselves more with quiz-taking on Facebook.

[Kevin Greene]

Originally Posted by Adam Elgar

Now, if members would like to propose a new board for people who are writing in English as a second language, that would be an interesting idea and (speaking purely for myself) I should think it could be given serious consideration. But I don't know how many people would make use of it.

Were we to have a place for poetry in a second language, I'd jump at the chance.

Kevin