[Jayne Osborn]

Hi Tony,

Still, I do feel that there are gaps in my education, gap so wide "even two can pass abreast" as it might be.

Make that "four abreast", then, in my case! Pyrrhics, anapests, trochees, catalexis, promoted, demoted, substitutions, headless... complex stuff, this poetry!

I'm intrigued by Maryann's question:
On the larger question--what were you taught about where substitutions are permitted?--very anciently, I was taught that in pentameter, trochaic substitutions are permitted in the first and third feet only.

Taught it to that level? Where? At school? University? I've never been taught anything along these lines but, like you, 'I taught myself from books', and still have to double-check some of the more obscure poetic devices.
(You sound knowledgeable enough about it all, to me, Tony! )

[Maryann Corbett]

Originally Posted by Jayne Osborn

I'm intrigued by Maryann's question:
On the larger question--what were you taught about where substitutions are permitted?--very anciently, I was taught that in pentameter, trochaic substitutions are permitted in the first and third feet only.

Taught it to that level? Where? At school? University?

University, Jayne. I'm recalling a book, one that was a "recommended text" rather than the main text, and mainly a reference, in an honors literature survey. Darn if I can remember which book. Not much help; sorry.

[R. S. Gwynn]

Tony, send me an email and I'll send the list.

Sam

[Jayne Osborn]

Thanks, Maryann.
It's OK, I have lots of reference books, but with the benefit of hindsight I'd have taken a different study course.
Too late now; I'm done with studying (in the formal sense). I just read those reference books if, and when, I feel like it, these days!

[Gregory Dowling]

Originally Posted by Wintaka

One of the two most common errors in scansion is to mistake "Tyger, Tyger" for trochaic tetrameter. The poem has six lines of clearcut iambic tetrameter, 18 hypometrical/ambiguous lines and zero lines of trochee.

Colin, I can see the iambic lines and I can see a case for saying some lines are ambiguous. But I really don't see how it is possible to say it has zero lines of trochee. How do you scan the first line? And "What the hammer? what the chain?" I confess I'm not sure how you are using the term "hypometrical"; presumably it is alternative to "catalectic" but I still don't see how one read these lines other than with a marked trochaic beat.

[Lance Levens]

Tony,

How many substitutions (any type) push you over the line into a non-met poem? At that point
would you be inclined to patch it up into meter turn it loose as is?

[John Whitworth]

Americans, Oh praise youse all, know more about metrics than Brits have ever known. I love and admire this stuff. Now I know what I did. This is NOT an example of British irony. I mean it sincerely. If a cricketer can bash the ball out of the park, well and good. But if he doesn't know how he does it, sooner or later he will lose the knack.

[Bill Carpenter]

Tony,
Some substitutions from the opening of PL:

Of man's first disobedience, and the fruit
Reversed 2nd foot

Sing, Heavenly Muse, that, on the secret top
Spondee in 1st foot

In the beginning how the heavens and earth
Pyrrhic 1st foot

Rose out of Chaos: or, if Sion hill
Reversed 1st foot

That with no middle flight intends to soar
Spondee in 2nd foot

Instruct me, for Thou know’st; Thou from the first
Reversed 4th foot (base hit!)

Dove-like sat’st brooding on the vast Abyss,
Reversed 1st foot, spondee or near spondee in 2nd foot, pyrrhic or near-pyrrhic 3rd

Illumine, what is low raise and support;
Reversed 4th foot (on base again!)

That, to the highth of this great argument,
Reversed or pyrrhic 1st foot

Nor the deep tract of Hell—say first what cause
Pyrrhic 1st, spondee 2nd—your double iamb

Moved our grand Parents, in that happy state,
Reversed 1st, spondee (?) in 2nd

Favoured of Heaven so highly, to fall off
Reversed 1st, pyrrhic 4th, spondee 5th

For one restraint, lords of the World besides.
Reversed 3rd

With vain attempt. Him the Almighty Power
Reversed 3rd

Hurled headlong flaming from the ethereal sky,
Spondee in 1st and 2nd

Nine times the space that measures day and night
Spondee in 1st

To mortal men, he, with his horrid crew,
Reversed 3rd

Both of lost happiness and lasting pain
Reversed 1st

Mixed with obdurate pride and steadfast hate.
Reversed 1st

Good stuff. As Tim Murphy said, "the ultimate clinic for anyone who wants to master pentameter."

[Clive Watkins]

Hm? Well...

Of man's first disobedience, and the fruit – regular IP

Sing, Heavenly Muse, that, on the secret top – trochee, iamb, iamb, iamb, iamb (“Heavenly”: two syllables)

In the beginning how the heavens and earth – elision / suppression of first “the” (“in th’”, a common phonetic habit in the period) “Heavens”: one syllable.

Rose out of Chaos: or, if Sion hill – reversed 1st foot: Indeed; then regular IP

That with no middle flight intends to soar – either iamb, iamb or trochee, iamb

Instruct me, for Thou know’st; Thou from the first – reversed 4th foot: Yes, but its relation to the syntax is of interest.

Dove-like sat’st brooding on the vast Abyss – trochee, iamb, iamb, iamb, iamb

Illumine, what is low raise and support – reversed 4th foot: Indeed, but again its relation to the syntax is of interest.

That, to the highth of this great argument – trochee, iamb, iamb, iamb, iamb

Nor the deep tract of Hell—say first what cause – trochee, iamb, iamb, iamb, iamb

Moved our grand Parents, in that happy state – trochee, iamb, iamb, iamb, iamb

Favoured of Heaven so highly, to fall off – trochee, iamb, iamb, iamb, iamb (“to” readily promoted)

For one restraint, lords of the World besides – reversed 3rd: Yes, but again its relation to the syntax is of interest.

With vain attempt. Him the Almighty Power – reversed 3rd: Yes, but again its relation to the syntax is of interest.

Hurled headlong flaming from the ethereal sky – regular IP (with elision at “the – “th’”: see above.)

Nine times the space that measures day and night – regular IP

To mortal men, he, with his horrid crew – reversed 3rd: Yes, but again the relation to the syntax is of interest.

Both of lost happiness and lasting pain – trochee, iamb, iamb, iamb, iamb

Mixed with obdurate pride and steadfast hate – reversed 1st: Indeed (“Obdurate” stressed on second syllable)

...

Metrical verse and non-metrical verse are not the same.

Clive

[Tony Barnstone]

Hi All,

No, I was never taught anything about substitutions only being appropriate in particular feet. Fascinating idea, but I'm scared to know more!

The P. Lost scansion back and forth is fascinating. I'm gonna have to spend more time, well, scanning these lines to make up my mind. A messy mind is like messy bed--unlikely to be made up before naptime, in my case.

Thanks, T