[Charlotte Innes]

Dear Quincy and Janice,

You are both people whom I admire for passion and caring. And this is a perfectly legitimate debate, that could go on! But I'm too tired this Christmas morning to do anything except curl up with my cat.

Thanks, Janice for responding with your stories. I was traveling through communist Europe in a van with my father and sister when I was a kid. He's an old Socialist and lover of modern history (now 92)--and a Jewish refugee from Berlin--who drove us across Europe to see modern history in the making. We went to East Germany (we must have been the only Westerners there in the 1960s!), Czechoslovakia (my grandfather grew up in what's now Slovakia), and several times to Yugoslavia, which was beautiful then, didn't have a single hotel on the coast, and no-one was starting a war--at least as far as we could see. Of course, we saw a lot of very poor people in all those countries. And personally, I think communism is an idea that went horrifically wrong. I was glad when it ended. Glad that VH appeared to have a sincere, moral, humane stance. And right, I'm sure he's not a god...

Now corruption seems rampant, in Russia at least. But I would like to go there, largely because I love Chekhov. And I want to go back to Czechoslovakia because my grandfather died in Theresienstadt (Terezin)--but that was another dictatorship--and I've never seen Prague. And yes, my memories are also of people who were extraordinarily kind and friendly.

My father, still a Labour party member (never a communist), hates what's happening to the party now, so he probably would like the sentiments in the Phil Ochs song. Too much for me to take this morning! My dad took us to see Pete Seeger in Nottingham, back in the day! That was something...

I would like to re-read Havel's 1975 letter. I expect it's on the web somewhere. If you know a link, Janice, do let me know!

OK enough from me. Happy CD both of you. The sky is fantastically blue here, and I think I'll go out for a walk soon!

Charlotte

PS: I just realized this is in The Accomplished Members Forum! And that this is about BARBARA's accomplishment. Sorry Barbara! Again, thanks for the poem.

[Barbara Lightner]

Charlotte and Janice: Thanks for commenting on the Havel. More next to Quincy's name.

Quincy: Did you read the poem or did you just run to Ochs before you knew what it said? I believe I undercut the Havel accomplishments by noting that "until philosopher EX’s politician/struggled opposed foundered diminished/Velvet Revolution, and he does not survive." I also called him a "child," noted his womanizing, and various and other sundry.

Note, too, the last line-- he will prevail, not merely survive, until the last clash of civilization.

Feel free to hate the poem, Quincy, and/or the man. But do not ever, ever, again satirize me as liberal. You have no idea who I am, what I have been, who I have stood beside, or when I have had to, out of ethical necessity, bitten the hand(s) that have fed me. (And try to steer clear of knee jerk responses before you read/hear what is bring said.) Thank you.

[Adam Elgar]

Please, everyone, let's remember this is an Accomplished Members thread and not a venue for political debate.