[W.F. Lantry]

Originally Posted by Max Goodman

But then you're not the only one writing foolish things in these threads.

Max,

No serious person still argues about this. The only reason it's even still on the agenda is because american politicians take money from energy companies, and they don't want the flow to dry up. And a certain kind of american voter watches a certain network which keeps viewers by using it as a point of cultural identification.

Rational people ask themselves, all the time, why people vote against their own self interests, in the face of all evidence. How could there be an electoral coalition between the guy who lives in a penthouse and the guy who fixes the rich guys' air conditioner? I wondered about it for a long time myself. Then I found the answer in Dostoyevsky:

"Even if man were nothing but a piano key, even if this were proved to him by natural science and mathematics, even then he would not become reasonable, but would purposely do something perverse out of sheer ingratitude, simply to have his own way…then, after all, perhaps only by his curse will he attain his object, that is, really convince himself that he is a man and not a piano key!"

In other words, John and Charlie and the others know they're wrong, they know it with deep certainty. But they believe in personal freedom. Under those conditions, no amount of natural science will persuade them. The defiance of their self-determination gives them identity. It doesn't matter how many maps Julie posts. Reality is beside the point, that's all external. They want their own way, to have their own say, and it's theirs, after all, and so they exist.

It's why the guy who fixes air conditioners votes for people who hate him, it's why the deep south is so poor, it's why women still don't have their rights, even to equal representation. "I'm not defined by circumstances, I'm my own person, my beliefs are me, and I share them with others, and to hell with reality." When people told Cheney invading Iraq wasn't realistic, didn't match the facts on the ground, he said "We make our own reality." And that reality was his, he wasn't just some piano key, and to prove it to himself he still has to deny the results. And he does so. With heartfelt conviction.

John and Charlie and the rest have those same convictions. Rationality never persuades anyone. Poets should know that better than anyone else. "Only emotion endures."

Best,

Bill

[Charlie Southerland]

Bill, you have wandered off into the land of goofy again.

At no time in this thread have I said that global warming doesn't exist. I am not a global cooling denier or propagator either. There are clearly both, simultaneously happening all the time. What I am denying is the depiction of the phenomena and the attempts to co-opt and blackmail unsuspecting souls with the theory that either is man-caused. Nonsense. Conversely, Bill, just because you believe what you do, doesn't make it true. It is unprovable. Lots of serious scientists continue to argue with the man-caused meme you spout. By the way, I vote against my own self-interests all the time. That is another discussion though. Rational people normally vote their pocketbooks, unlike the past two presidential elections which hinged upon the promise of a savior who would change the world. Well, he surely did that. As to the piano key reference; I am surely a man, not a piano key. I play piano, it doesn't play me.

Your idea that the south is poor because of ignorance or redneckedness borders on insanity. What is South LA's, Chicago's Detroit's, Seattle's, Cleveland's, and numerous other northern and western city's excuse for dire poverty? What ails you, Bill? I fear that upon reading your pointy-headed silliness, some southern-repressed women are gonna' come up there and whup your ass. Foolish things indeed!

I have few convictions, Bill. The ones I do have are Christian-based. If that makes me irrational, I can live with that. Emotion isn't such a bad thing. They're trying to install emotions into robots so that robots can be more humanlike. Unlike dodo's who watch certain other networks which keeps viewers by using them as propaganda tools for their progressive agenda. Down deep in your heart,Bill, you know I'm right, but no one likes to be embarrassed by a stump jumper with mud between his toes. Ya'll.

[ross hamilton hill]

The biggest energy users are the USA and Western Europe, not only in terms of overall use but use compared to land area. Also Japan. So if pollution and over use of resources is one of the world's biggest problems then the culprits are there to see. But I still think over-population is by far the biggest danger, we have over-bred and over-crowded the planet and are victims of our own success as a species. It's no one's fault. It's like Lenin said , 'two steps forward,one step back' we will have huge problems and it's hard to see it not being disastrous in some ways. A drought in California is just one of dozens of ways the world is feeling the pinch. Sydney was almost out of water a few years back, we built a huge desalination plant in expectation of there beng no water for a city of 3 million then the rains came and it's never been used.

And John a quarter of all Muslims live in Indonesia, a moderate democracy where females form half of the public service and participate fully in all aspects of life, including getting a good education. Islam is not by definition an extreme religion as anyone who has read the Koran knows. It is extreme in some countries because those countries are in a different stage of their development from the West, it is easy to forget what Western countries were like in the 17th or 18th centuries, you can't expect all countries to progress at the same rate.

[Max Goodman]

Originally Posted by Charlie Southerland

I have few convictions, Bill. The ones I do have are Christian-based. If that makes me irrational, I can live with that.

G-d bless you, Charlie, for acknowledging at least the possibility that your convictions are irrational.

The only problem comes when people insist that their irrational convictions play a role in our collective decision-making. The bible says the sun goes around the Earth. Should NASA take that into account? If 50% of U.S. citizens take the bible literally, should half of NASA's budget be devoted to projects based on a biblical understanding of astronomy and only the other half to projects based on science?

We need to work together based on fact, not conviction.

[John Whitworth]

Max, you do go on and on about facts. A bit of a Gradgrind. Scientific facts tend to fade away like the morning dew. But perhaps you have noticed. I might mention many facts, but the solid state universe will do for now. And I gather the big bang is not quite the fact it was.

Then there was the cause of ulcers. Know about that?.

[Charlie Southerland]

Hi Max, You might have a better understanding of the Bible than I do. Recently, a theory (an old theory) scientists have revisited, has developed that the universe revolves around Earth. Since I cannot refute that theory by experience, I would say it's as plausible as some of the theories I've heard of. I mean, if it were true, imagine time and space and the ramifications of that discovery. Pretty deep stuff, huh? I don't claim to embrace geocentrism, but I can't say that it isn't true either. There are some mysteries that remain mysteries, except to science fiction writers. God does what He does according to His pleasure. John 3:8 says— that you can hear the sound of the wind, but no one knows where it comes from. Has that mystery been solved yet?

[Julie Steiner]

Originally Posted by Charlie Southerland

God does what He does according to His pleasure. John 3:8 says— that you can hear the sound of the wind, but no one knows where it comes from. Has that mystery been solved yet?

In the passage you paraphrased, Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus--who had just asked, in a very literal way, how a person who has already been born can be born again--that people can be "born of the Spirit":


τὸ πνεῦμα ὅπου θέλει πνεῖ,
The wind/spirit/breath where it wishes blows/breathes

καὶ τὴν φωνὴν αὐτοῦ ἀκούεις,
and the sound of it you [second person singular, i.e. Nicodemus] hear,

ἀλλ’ οὐκ οἶδας πόθεν ἔρχεται
but you [second person singular, i.e. Nicodemus] do not know whence it comes,

καὶ ποῦ ὑπάγει·
and where it goes;

οὕτως ἐστὶν πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ πνεύματος.
thus [i.e., not knowing] is everyone who is [in the state of] having been born of the wind/spirit/breath.


Note that the use of capital letters for names is a new-fangled thing--different forms of letters for majuscule and minuscule uses did not even exist at the time. Also note that the English words "wind" and "spirit" are exactly the same in Greek. So Jesus may not even have been talking about "wind" at all, even metaphorically--he have been talking about the workings of the Holy Spirit the whole time.

Regardless, I don't think that Jesus's telling Nicodemus "you do not know" something meant that it must be past all human understanding, forever.

The Bible is not a science book. That doesn't mean it's not true, it just means that its truths are often metaphorical rather than factual. Those who insist on seeing literal, scientific accuracy in the Bible can, like Nicodemus, completely miss far more important truths in it.

As for wind, I grew up in a little town in the Mojave Desert, which happens to be where quite a bit of it comes from. In hot areas--i.e., areas that absorb a lot of the sun's thermal energy--the air expands, resulting in higher pressure and lower density. As that air gradually loses energy (i.e., cools), its molecules contract, resulting in lower pressure and greater density. Wind is the movement of air from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure. This is why a falling barometer needle (measuring a decrease in air pressure) usually means it's going to get stormy, if the air attracted to that low pressure area is humid.

I hope this is helpful.

[W.F. Lantry]

San Diego, in my lifetime, was a gardener's paradise. Now there's this:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...ry.html#page=1

You simply must look for the pictures that show what's become of Squaw Valley...

Thanks,

Bill

[Julie Steiner]

I habitually do lots of things that are probably futile.

I pray to a deity that probably does not exist.

I actively participate in a church whose misogyny I will probably not be able to change.

I write letters to the Supreme Leader of Iran, who probably doesn't give the slightest rip what I think of his regime's mistreatment of various prisoners.

I get involved in long arguments here, which probably don't make the slightest (positive) difference in what what people already think.

I keep pushing for a pediatric heart transplant center to get established in my hometown, despite being told that it's impossible, for various reasons.

Oh, wait! Two months ago, that one actually worked out!

Maybe there's hope for some of the other stuff, too.

Ever the optimist,
Julie