[Janice D. Soderling]

Just a quick comment. I printed out the text and read it for breakfast and want to say that Peter's argument based on alliteration is very compelling. The next thought that arises is whether "hrefn" might be a generic term for all black birds and (daring conjecture) the differences (say between raven and blackbird--in the modern sense--might then have been distinguished through pronunciation (inflection and stress) and context. English had a fairly limited vocabulary at that time.

I am very intrigued by Michael's reference to Aldhelm's Riddle 43. I am not knowledgeable about the old riddles (one of many knowledge gaps) and can't find a referential text. I agree fully about the blurred lines between the religions. Moreover it is not easy to discern when enthusiasm for the scribe's own faith took the upper hand and a text was embellished. I'll try to see if I can find out more about this.

A most interesting discussion from the depths of the collective Spherian brain. I am grateful for the interest and added knowledge. Thanks.

[Bill Carpenter]

The poet doesn't call them "sweet-singing ," Janice, but "blithe-hearted." Although it is ominous making them heralds of heaven's joy, there is a basis in their typical behavior, which is social, communicative, playful, bold, inventive. You should read Tolkien's Beowulf and the Critics. Nothing better on the relationship of Christianity and paganism in the poem. Richard North's Origins of Beowulf is a fascinating compendium of source material, including likely tale-telling from Scandinavian sailors and heterodox scriptures.

[Janice D. Soderling]

Thanks so much, Bill. Just ordered "The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essays" and while I had my spending breeches on, I also boughtThe Origins of Beowulf: and the Pre-Viking Kingdom of East Anglia by Sam Newton (and) Kathy Herbert's Looking for the Lost Gods of England.

The Richard North tome will have to wait for another day. But is duly noted. Thank you.

As is your comment on "blithe-hearted". I wouldn't characterize a Corvus as blithe, though others might. "blithe" is a really ancient word, Old Norse that goes back to Old High German roots.

If this source is to be trusted, the nuance is not raven-like.

blithe (adj.) Old English bliþe "joyous, kind, cheerful, pleasant," from Proto-Germanic *blithiz "gentle, kind" (cognates: Old Saxon bliði "bright, happy," Middle Dutch blide, Dutch blijde, Old Norse bliðr "mild, gentle," Old High German blidi "gay, friendly," Gothic bleiþs "kind, friendly, merciful").
That said, I am enjoying this conversation very much. (And will make a few spelling and grammar corrections in my next which I noticed when I read the printed thread.)

[Tim Murphy]

Well, we definitely took hrefn blaec as black raven, not as blackbird. And he does appear many times, usually rending the corpses of the slain.

The Wulf is a monster of a poem, and our version is about 300 lines shorter than the original, simply because our language is so much more economical than Anglo Saxon and we wanted to avoid the padding found in so many translations.

When we finally read Heaney's translation, Alan dubbed it the Heaneywulf, the epic poem of the Celtic people!

Janet, I regard it as 8th C. and written in Scandinavia. It is monotheistic, no Christ, no conception of the trinity, no mention of the Germanic pantheon, only the All-father. So I date the poem by its theology. I believe the poet had some familiarity with the Old Testament, not the New. So it certainly couldn't have been written in England after St. Augustine converted the country.

[Ed Shacklee]

You clearly both nerds of the first water, and I am in awe of you. This is a delightful thread.

Best,

Ed

[Janice D. Soderling]

Hi Tim. Good to see you and thank you so much for responding.

Janet, I regard it as 8th C. and written in Scandinavia. It is monotheistic, no Christ, no conception of the trinity, no mention of the Germanic pantheon, only the All-father.

In the 700s (8th century) the Old Norse gods were still worshiped in Scandinavia.

I mentioned the absence of Christ in Beowulf only to make clear that (to my mind), had this poem been composed during a Christian period, it would have referenced "Vite Krist" (Hvítakristr) White Christ, for this term was intrinsic to the the religious struggle with "Röde Tor", Red Thor, who was a bloody warlike god in contrast to the supposedly peace-loving Christus. (N.B. Pre-Crusade.)

However, all the deity references in Beowulf are (as you said, Tim) to an All-Father figure. Odin was father to Thor and was the most powerful god in Old Norse mythology.

Let me add that I am deriving much pleasure from your and Alan's translation (as well as Mr. Heaney's) and especially your footnotes are enjoyable (something lacking in the Heaney rendition. Esp. I am happy when I find references to items and habits still alive in our contemporary language and culture.

Should your path wend through Scandinavia, I recommend that you (and all and sundry who share our interest) visit the Danish national museum (one of my favorite museums in all the world) which has the ground floor dedicated to Viking history--authentic chain-mail of the type mentioned in the poem and much more. Free entry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...eum_of_Denmark

Also in Norway, there is a terrific museum containing longships excavated from barrows, burial mounds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking...eum_%28Oslo%29

And in England, don't miss the Sutton Ho burial exhibition at the British Museum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_Hoo

In Sweden, I say don't miss the Gold Room at http://historiska.se/utstallningar/guldrummet/

That said, thanks again for your contributions to the Beowulf translation. To which I shall now return.

Janice

[Andrew Frisardi]

Yes, wonderful thread. Janice, wouldn’t warriors of that time and place, at least in a heroic poem, be more cheered by a raucous raven than a sweet-singing blackbird? They weren’t John Keats.

A medieval bestiary that I have, translated from a twelfth-century Latin source, says two things about ravens: They were thought not to feed their young until the black of their feathers showed; and the first part of a corpse they pecked out was the eyes. And both these images strike me as things a warrior would think were pretty cool. The raven in the early morning could be a sort of mascot-shout.

[Janice D. Soderling]

The more I dig into this Beowulf legend, the more I convince myself that it is an old Norse saga that has been Christianized and sanitized. The Cain reference must surely originally have been to Loki (who fathered Fenrir and Jǫrmungandr among other disreputable children), and the good monks did not wish to taint the story with foreign gods.

If I dig deep enough I'm sure to find someone who has documented the same doubt.

The notes to the Benjamin Slade translation (linked in Post #35 above) are a treasure trove.

I am impelled to pass on the following anecdote.

I learned the word "halvdan" early in my Swedish-vocabulary-building: it means "mediocre, middling, not well-done, sloppily made". When I began my first "real job" in Sweden, a large office where I had hundreds of workmates, there was a colleague whom everyone referred to as Halvdan. When I protested one day that it wasn't a very nice nickname, they laughed and said that was his real name. So I shut up but secretly wondered why anyone would give their child such a debilitating name. Well, in the notes to the Slade translation I found this footnote.

Half-Dane is Beowulf-Scyldings's son. "Half-Danes" later appear in the poem (l. 1068) ruled over by Hnaef, apparently part of the Danish forces (or allied with them). Wrinn proposes that they may actually be Jutes in Danish service, hence their strange names.

It isn't hard to understand how the name became (in Swedish) something done only by halves, local humor like the rivalry of two towns with opposing football teams.

Looking further I found this (seeming) confirmation: "In Norwegian, the name Halvdan means - half dane. The name Halvdan originated as a Norwegian name. The name Halvdan is most often used as a boy name or male name." http://www.meaning-of-names.com/norwegian-names/halvdan.asp#ixzz3hjhgiREQ

Re ethnic designations, one must remember the many old and new borders and allegiances. Norwegian Vikings were independent tribes, later Norway was under the rule of Denmark, then Sweden and only in modern times (1905) again became an independent nation, a peaceful transition with no bloodshed.

Related to this word "halvdan" is my former puzzlement over an expression I often heard when the language was still fairly new to me and I was daily trying to make sense of what I heard around me. A new employee who was quickly elevated to a top position was described by everyone as having "arrived and quickly climbed up in the high seat (högsätet)". Later, in the course of reading the Old Norse literature I understood this everyday expression to be another relic, a reference to the elevated position of the king in the great hall, what Murphy-Sullivan translate as "throne" and Heany translates as "platform" (leading me to think of the "high table" at Oxford—though that may be folk etymology on my part).

Such is the pleasure of reading Beowulf—incidentally the latter part of the name, "ulf", means "wolf"—still a common name in Sweden today, like "Björn", bear, and "Tor", Thor, and lots of names with "Gud", indicating a divine connection to the pagan gods. Topdown conversion is not very effective.

[Janice D. Soderling]

PS to Michael.

Yes, the raven was sent out before the dove but we don't know what happened to it. I don't think the brain behind Beowulf would have access to that information as the action takes place in a very limited geographic area (Geat = Götaland, both east and west) and Denmark (which at that time controlled southern Sweden).

Of course, I am not saying so with any degree of certainty, but it doesn't seem probable to me. Until proven wrong, I'll stick to my notion that a Christian veneer has been superimposed on a pagan epic poem.

Likely I am not the first or only one to entertain this idea. I'm looking forward to the arrival of my new books.

[Janice D. Soderling]

Crossposted with Andrew.

Yes, I understand your point. But the context (to me) seems to call for a joyous blackbird rather than a raven. Also the blackbird sings at night. I don't believe the raven calls (or sings) nighttime.

Thanks again to all who have contributed thoughts and new angles.