[Roger Slater]

OK, back to philosophy. But I might have gone beyond "not all men"-ing you to the realm of "hardly any men"-ing you. After all, I am not solely responsible for Emily Dickinson's reputation. In some other thread at some other time, I'd be curious to see the basis for suggesting that a substantial number of male poets and literary critics are dismissive of women's poetry as being by and for chicks. (And I'd also wonder if this is more common than female poets and literary critics who are dismissive of male poetry as being by and for other men).

As far as philosophy in poetry is concerned, my take is that poetry often gives philosophers ideas to expound upon, but so does everything else that reacts to the world and somehow reflects on the nature of consciousness and identity and sentience. But I don't think there's anything distinctively philosophical about poetry or poets.

[cross posted with Mary]

[Mary Meriam]

Doesn't every group have their own Weltanschauung? Don't we respond most to poems that share our Weltanschauung? Yes and yes. The fact is that men in general dominate the world, including poetry, including even the Sphere. Just look at Met or Non-Met: mostly men posts. Men have a long history of being dominant, and they naturally feel more comfortable speaking out, making judgments, moving freely in the world. I don't blame men for this situation, but it's helpful for men to recognize it and listen to what the girls are saying. I'll always be grateful for being listened to at the Sphere - in my poems that is. But I'm fully aware that because my name is female, I'm in a different .. uh, sphere.

[ross hamilton hill]

I agree Mary, all clubs have a character, and poetry forums are no different.
But the Sphere has a deserved reputation for tough criticism and a lot of women are put off by that approach. There are many poetry forums dominated by women, Neopoet is one. These are self-congratulatory forums with little serious criticism.
There are also many forums that have a graduated approach; the Sphere does not, the three sections are critiqued with equal harshness.
Myspace used to be very popular with female poets who wanted 'appreciation' rather than criticism.
Some were good poets who found being publicly critiqued very distressing although they were often interested in private emailed critique.
Women have very different approaches in many areas of life. Vive la différence.

[Charlie Southerland]

If one is using a measuring stick to give women their due, fuhget about it. They have won 11 of 20 Nemerov contests. I'd say they've earned it in the face of a man-dominated world. Hmmm.

[Allen Tice]

Is this thought big enough to qualify? It might be, for me, her best.

The tongue says loneliness

The tongue says loneliness, anger, grief,
but does not feel them.

As Monday cannot feel Tuesday,
nor Thursday
reach back to Wednesday
as a mother reaches out for her found child.

As this life is not a gate, but the horse plunging through it.

Not a bell,
but the sound of the bell in the bell-shape,
lashing full strength with the first blow from inside the iron.

- Jane Hirshfield

[Matt Q]

Originally Posted by ross hamilton hill

But the Sphere has a deserved reputation for tough criticism and a lot of women are put off by that approach. There are many poetry forums dominated by women, Neopoet is one. These are self-congratulatory forums with little serious criticism.

Hi Ross,

I started out, and still post, on another forum. I believe there are more women posting there then men, and in my opinion the crit there is significantly tougher than here.This makes me wonder how easy it is to attribute the gender imbalance at the Sphere to toughness of crits.

Presumably there are a lot of other possibilities? Maybe more men than women like to write in form? There's certainly less metrical poetry on the other forum. Alternatively, if you look at the recurring spats and public unpleasantness that occurs here, it does seem to almost always be between men. Maybe that what's puts women off? There aren't any spats at the other forum because the mods don't allow it. In fact, the mods there are very strict, and every rule is policed, and no one argues with the mods, except very, very politely, defensiveness in the face of critique is not tolerated, and critters are not to allowed to argue with other critters opinions. Maybe men's egos are less well adapted to that level of constraint. I'm sure I could come with other possibilities if I tried.

I guess one can generalise from any observed difference but, I am reluctant to accept that women don't like straightforward, honest critique because a) the women I know on poetry forums welcome it, and b) I also tend to assume that anyone looking to improve welcomes it (once they've gotten their ego out the way), and I don't see any a priori reason why women should be any different in this respect.

But what do I know? I would be interested to hear the views of women on the Sphere. Why are there less women here?

best,

Matt