[Andrew Szilvasy]

Originally Posted by Aaron Poochigian

Ovid is more influential because he is easier. Those of us with better Latin, with more discerning, with--dare I say?--better taste recognize that Propertius' Elegies beat Ovid's in every category.

Here is a little equation entitled "Andrew S. is wrong":

Passion + Craft = Sublimity.

Wit + Craft = Cleverness.

Sublimity > Cleverness

Oh! You just got burned, dude!

Ah, yes, notable dunces all, whose simplicity led to such uncomplicated outpourings of verse. I also forgot that greater difficulty means something is better. Let's try out this Poochigian logic: Pounds Cantos are harder than Shakespeare: ergo, Pound is greater than Shakespeare!

Passion, shmassion. It's a phony put-on that Ovid saw right through. Propertius' passion poems border on maudlin; then poor sap died just when he started to push off in new directions.

Ovid has emotions; Ovid has insight; he lacks this "passion" that I'd suggest all poetry necessarily lacks in an authentic way.

Ovid beats Propertius in my eyes because he looks at the world as it is, and toys with it. Give me that poetry every day. And judge him--and my position--by the company he keeps, simpletons though we are.

[Aaron Poochigian]

Oh, if only Shakespeare had known Propertius as well as Ovid!

I understand your position--some people just prefer superficial poetry to poetry with depth.

[Andrew Szilvasy]

It's true! Me, Dorus, and Milton, with our forced fingers rude, will enjoy the simple, country pleasures of Ovid. Shakespeare will be late, but tip a rustic ale. You, Ezra, and whoever else can have your fancy feasts and enjoy the depths of Propertius. They'll be berets, and everyone will pretend that there's something authentic about the whole ordeal. It will be good wine, I think, and I'll miss out.

[Gail White]

Most entertaining controversy I ever read.

[Aaron Poochigian]

Andrew, I'm disappointed--you can't get past your failed "influence" argument (which has more to do with chance manuscript history than anything else) and say why Ovid's elegaics are better than Propertius' (they ain't).

[John Isbell]

Not to make a claim as to my personal preference, but this is from the blurb for CUP's Ovid in the Middle Ages: "Ovid is perhaps the most important surviving Latin poet and his work has influenced writers throughout the world. [...] It elaborates the scale and scope of the enthusiasm for Ovid in medieval Europe, following readers of the canon from the Carolingian monasteries to the early schools of the Île de France and on into clerical and curial milieux in Italy, Spain, the British Isles and even the Byzantine Empire."
Here's hoping the volume goes some way to accounting for why Ovid remained a Europe-wide phenomenon across the span of several medieval centuries. I think it goes beyond the chances of manuscript transmission - indeed, it helps to account for that - though argument is always fun, and it's true, the period had some odd preferences.
I could do with looking at both more closely in Latin. I enjoyed the Latin Amores in high school, the Humphries Metamorphoses I find a bit prosy. Propertius - hmm. Catullus has passion. Miser Catulle, desinas ineptire, et quod vides perisse perditum ducas. And for music, I like Virgil and Horace. My Greek is too poor now to hear the Greeks.
Maybe one day I'll work on my Classics again.

Cheers,
John

[Andrew Szilvasy]

I find the "passion = better" argument silly, myself.

I'm also an amateur classicist arguing with a Ph.D. The fundamental weakness I have in the argument is one of "appeal to authority": you know the Latin deeper than I do. I think Ovid's couplets are better, but that will always carry a little less weight than you think Propertius' are. There's obviously more to Ovid's importance than the weight of the manuscript tradition, though his frequency in the manuscript tradition owes to his greater popularity, particularly among the educated class.

Some moments I quite enjoy (and I apologize that they are untranslated--I had to find them in my notes and then cut and paste them from Perseus.

Si tibi non opus est servata, stulte, puella,
.....At mihi fac serves, quo magis ipse velim!
Quod licet, ingratum est; quod non licet acrius urit.
.....Ferreus est, siquis, quod sinit alter, amat
Speremus pariter, pariter metuamus amantes,
.....Et faciat voto rara repulsa locum.
Quo mihi fortunam, quae numquam fallere curet?
.....Nil ego, quod nullo tempore laedat, amo!
*
Sic ego nec sine te nec tecum vivere possum,
.....Et videor voti nescius esse mei.

Or, the attitude that I admire a great deal, from Ars Amatoria:

Expedit esse deos, et, ut expedit, esse putemus;
.....Dentur in antiquos tura merumque focos;
Nec secura quies illos similisque sopori
.....Detinet; innocue vivite: numen adest;
Reddite depositum; pietas sua foedera servet:
.....Fraus absit; vacuas caedis habete manus.

and:

Est deus in nobis, et sunt commercia caeli:
.....Sedibus aetheriis spiritus ille venit.

Or:

Casus ubique valet; semper tibi pendeat hamus
.....Quo minime credas gurgite, piscis erit.

[Roger Slater]

Please, people! We're all friends here. Can't we just agree that they're both incredibly boring in their own way?

[Aaron Poochigian]

Andrew,

I feel I hardly need to respond at this point, since I have so thoroughly established that Propertius’ Elegies contain more passion, subtlety and depth than Ovid’s. All the same, though I hesitate to kick a man when he is down, here goes:

As for your first excerpt,

we must agree with what Dr. Papanghelis says, “We should beware of foisting on Propertius the donjuanesque cynicism which Ovid often flaunts in glamorizing urbane adultery.” (Propertius: A Hellenstic Poet on Love and Death, 172)

Far more emotionally resonant is Propertius' assumption of the role of the man cheated on, as when he says to Cynthia:

hos tu iurabas, si quid mentita fuisses,
ut tibi suppositis exciderent manibus:
et contra magnum potes hos attollere Solem,
nec tremis admissae conscia nequitiae?
quis te cogebat multos pallere colores
et fletum invitis ducere luminibus?
quis ego nunc pereo, similis moniturus amantis
‘O nullis tutum credere blanditiis!’

You swore by your eyes, if you’d been false in any way,
they’d vanish away when your fingers touched them.
And can you raise them to the vast sun, and not tremble,
aware of your heinous sins? Who forced your pallor
of shifting complexion, and drew tears from your unwilling eyes?
By those eyes I now am dying, like a man meant to warn other lovers:
‘No charms can ever be safely trusted!’

By those eyes I now am dying!—Come on! That’s great.

As for your second excerpt,

“Sic ego nec sine te nec tecum vivere possum”

“Thus I cannot live with you or without you.”

It is obvious that Ovid PLAGIARIZED that line from U2’s hit song from the 80’s “With Or Without You.”

Your other excerpts are beneath comment.