[Mike Slippkauskas]

I'm with Mark. Some of my favorite dogs are pits. They are the favorite of my younger sister Alison, who works with animals professionally. They are sweet, intelligent, beautiful, clownish, dignified (they pose like statuary), extremely gentle, especially around children and cats. Fighting dogs are chosen early after close attention to the traits of their parents and to early behavior. They are then cruelly abused to bring aggressivity to the fore. The truth is that virtually every breed has been involved in fatal human attacks. Breed-specific legislation is statistically untenable and false comfort.

One takes a risk owning any dog but proper care can reduce the risk to virtually nil. Infants and toddlers require constant supervision (don't they anyway?). Dogs should always be leashed (in urban areas) except for prescribed dog runs.

Breeding has a large part in this. Doberman Pinschers have had aggressivity largely bred out of them. They are now among the most docile of breeds.

P.S. Editing in to say I just absorbed more fully Mark's "blank slate" theory. I still largely agree with him. But dogs are bred for certain characteristics and inherent traits will remain. But spaying/neutering, early socialization, proper training, scope for excercize, play and other doggy behavior will hugely countervail any dangerous aggressivity (if such even exists).

[This message has been edited by Mike Slippkauskas (edited September 08, 2008).]

[A. E. Stallings]

There was an article somewhere--the New Yorker maybe?--a year or two ago on the dubiousness of dog breed profiling, pointing out that on some sort of agression scale, a pit bull or german shepherd isn't more aggressive than, say, your average dachshund.

The article was somewhat undermined by a letter to the editor afterward, which pointed out that, regardless of scores on the scale, there was quite a difference between being bitten by a dachshund and a pit bull...

[Marion Shore]

The Deadliest Dogs

Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, has conducted an unusually detailed study of dog bites from 1982 to the present. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.) The Clifton study show the number of serious canine-inflicted injuries by breed. The author's observations about the breeds and generally how to deal with the dangerous dog problem are enlightening.

According to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes are responsible for 74% of attacks that were included in the study, 68% of the attacks upon children, 82% of the attacks upon adults, 65% of the deaths, and 68% of the maimings. In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question. Clifton states:

If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.

Clifton's opinions are as interesting as his statistics. For example, he says, "Pit bulls and Rottweilers are accordingly dogs who not only must be handled with special precautions, but also must be regulated with special requirements appropriate to the risk they may pose to the public and other animals, if they are to be kept at all."

from
http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

[Tim Murphy]

Ma, I want a puppy for Christmas. There's the end of this conversation. I back off on pit bulls. It is the confluence of neglect in the handler, of cruelty and the need to dominate in our psyches, that induces psychosis in the dog. Feeney has retrieved 49 doves in the first five days of the season, more than most "hunting dogs" manage in a lifetime afield. I have trained four labradors, and I have confronted extremely aggressive dogs. They say, "Never look an aggressive dog in the eye." I raise both arms five feet above their heads, looking right at them and scream "Sit!" Works every time. For those of you who are threatened by an attack dog and have not my experience, I recommend the grizzly defense: curl into a ball and use your arms to protect your face and neck.

I am delighted to see that this mornin's flash USA Gallup of 937 likely voters shows McCain has gone from minus 8 to plus 10 visavis Obama. Evidently the lipsticked pit bull has had the desired effect.

[Donna English]

I think you're with me too, Mike. Dog fighters breed and select pitties that show the aggression level of their figting parents. Fans of the pitbull's clownishness, loyalty, and smiling face select and breed for those qualities, which eventually lessen the agressiveness built early into the breed. Your point about dobermans is spot on, the aggression has been toned way down or replaced by other traits that make them better suited as obedient, intelligent, playful, companions-- though there are bloodlines that are still being bred for their original purpose of guards. All those things you mention about owners who train, neuter, excercise and correct bad behavior etc. are the key--those along with well-thought breeding programs. Unfortunately, more owners don't than do. With some dogs, like some kids, you need to enforce tough love--let them know through firm but kind training that there are rules you just have to follow. I've had many breeds and crossbreeds over the years. Right now, I have a doberman/lab cross and a poodle/dacshund cross and just 3 weeks ago we put down our 15 year old boxer/german shepard cross. they were/are so different in many ways--their boldness, shyness, energy level, vocalness etc. despite growing up and being trained by our family only. We adapted our interactions and style of training to their natures and they adapted their watered down, crossbred natures to our training.

Donna

[Jennifer Reeser]

Mike, Doberman Pinschers are wonderful creatures -- loyal, protective, graceful, largely quiet, unless provoked. My father is a former soldier and military officer, and when I was growing up, he bred them and refused to keep any other type of dog.

One of my husband's favorite stories, in fact, is of a time when we were dating. Lance, the male Doberman in our house, was "my" dog, always at my side, generally a sweetheart and intensely possessive. Lance didn't like my husband, however, and one evening as we were all seated around my parents' living room, my husband was trying to be affectionate with the dog, gently rubbing behind his ears, talking comfortingly, etc., when without warning or provocation, Lance lunged at his head, mouth wide open and teeth bared.

My husband is a big, quick, powerful guy, and managed to shove the dog back before it ate his face.

And for a pet, I now have ... Audrey Hepburn -- a black female Labrador.

Jennifer

[Marion Shore]

Originally posted by Mike Slippkauskas:


One takes a risk owning any dog but proper care can reduce the risk to virtually nil. Infants and toddlers require constant supervision (don't they anyway?). Dogs should always be leashed (in urban areas) except for prescribed dog runs...

...But dogs are bred for certain characteristics and inherent traits will remain. But spaying/neutering, early socialization, proper training, scope for excercize, play and other doggy behavior will hugely countervail any dangerous aggressivity (if such even exists).

In an ideal world, maybe.

What if the infant or toddler isn't properly cared for? Or runs off the minute a frazzled Mom's back is turned? (How many of us caring for more than one child can say that's never happened?) So it's the baby's fault? The Mom's? Seems to me a classic case of blaming the victim.

BTW, in the fatal San Francisco dog attack, didn't the owners say the victim provoked the attack because of the perfume she was wearing?

As for "breeding, and spaying/neutering, early socialization, proper training, scope for excercize, play and other doggy behavior" -- Unfortunately, there will always be people who ignore these measures. And why not?-- with no legal intervention in place--until, off course, it's too late.

Originally posted by Tim Murphy

They say, "Never look an aggressive dog in the eye." I raise both arms five feet above their heads, looking right at them and scream "Sit!" Works every time. For those of you who are threatened by an attack dog and have not my experience, I recommend the grizzly defense: curl into a ball and use your arms to protect your face and neck."

Good advice. Tell that to a two-year old.

[Anne Bryant-Hamon]

Jesus was a community organizer.

Pontius Pilate was a Governor.

[Mike Slippkauskas]

To step back from the dog breed discussion, was anyone else disturbed by the joke's implications? (For clarity's sake that was: What's the difference between a hockey mom and a pitbull? Lipstick!) I appreciate or, rather, know what was meant. Tough, powerful female who will fight tenaciously, aggressively, loyally for America. Mooseburgers. Takin' on the Big Boys. Classic Republican myth-making (I say this with grudging respect). And possible only if the female candidate is unimpeachably feminine in other respects: Van Halen hot-for-teacher looks, sexy in a skirt suit.

But it also called up for me the parent who removes the element of play from school athletics. The parent who assaults the opposing coach and who instils fear and a dreadful sense of responsibility in her/his own daughter or son.

Back to breeds. Marion, certainly didn't mean to blame the victim. And what's the answer? Are all dogs ticking time-bombs? Should we outlaw all dogs of a certain weight or pound-strength in the jaws? The site you linked does not advocate breed legislation and has important tips for dog safety. In a country in which the cereal box must tell you those raspberries are a "serving suggestion" and McDonalds must warn you the coffee's hot, one can walk into a pet store and buy a Rottweiler no questions asked. Infants at home? Both parents working 60 hour weeks?




[This message has been edited by Mike Slippkauskas (edited September 08, 2008).]

[Marion Shore]

Originally posted by Mike Slippkauskas:


But it also called up for me the parent who removes the element of play from school athletics. The parent who assaults the opposing coach and who instils fear and a dreadful sense of responsibility in her/his own daughter or son.

Indeed, Mike. Not only the parent who assaults the opposing coach, but parents of the opposing players. But I think she is deliberately playing into that macho stereotype. As well as reinforcing the image of her own metaphorical balls; reminding us that, despite her feminine sex appeal, she's in touch with her inner macho.