[John Whitworth]

You might perhaps look at the work of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Roger. She puts it all so much better than I can. And that goes for anybody.

Have you heard of her? Be honest.

[Janice D. Soderling]

John, now I understand. You are getting your information from Faux News.The president DID NOT SAY "if we call it a war on radical Islam we are going to alienate the rest of the Muslim world", as Megan Kelly claims. Note also the misleading caption "President Obama says you can't equate events in Paris with religion of Islam". He DID NOT SAY THIS.

Listen to the video and note carefully he DID say. (Those kinds of stereotypes are counterproductive. ... They will lead, I think, to greater recruitment in the terrorist organizations over time, if it becomes defined over time as a Muslim problem as opposed to a terrorist problem.)

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...yre_doing.html

Anyone who is invited in by Fox News needs to be looked at more closely.

http://www.salon.com/2015/05/04/ayaa...ful_worldview/

And who, you may ask, is Rula Jebreal who appears on what Fox sneeringly calls the liberal media"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rula_Jebreal

Yes, I have heard of Ayaan Hirsi Ali (honestly) and I've tried to inform myself about her previously. Please note that she is speaking of radical Islam and I again make the point that most people of Muslim faith are not radicalized.

John, you are an excellent poet, you are in fact the Ben Carson of poetry operations, but you do not exercise similar critical thinking when you speak of matters political.

[Andrew Mandelbaum]

I like some of AHA. But I agree with this critique of her. John, it is hard to take you seriously when you never seem to actually engage with responses to your one sentence manifestos. Read this article and tell me what you disagree with.



http://www.salon.com/2015/04/26/ayaa...eds_pa rtner/

[Roger Slater]

I'm always honest, John. Yes, I've heard of her. She has appeared on the Jon Stewart show, among other places. She is certainly a controversial figure, a hero to some but apparently also a liar who pretended to be a refugee in order to be accepted first in the Netherlands and then in America. At any rate, as a refugee from a Muslim country, even if she didn't lie, her story lends support to the pro-refugee point of view.

But as far as her entire anti-Islam argument, I'm afraid that we won't get very far if you simply abdicate your end of the conversation and refer me to the the full body of work of an author you agree with, without even telling me what it is she said that you agree with and what points of hers you find persuasive and why. I could, of course, refer you to other authors who agree with me, but I thought the purpose of this thread was to have a discussion. If you're not prepared to make your own points, then I don't see why you are bothering to pretend to participate in a discussion.

[W.F. Lantry]

[John Whitworth]

Roger, you want to win, not know the truth. In America she may be all you say. Over here in Europe (which you may know little about) she is a heroine. She is, of course, under sentence of death, and one day she will be killed. She won't be the first. You no doubt remember the gay leader of a party in Holland. But America is far away and none of you are in danger. Yet.

[Roger Slater]

Originally Posted by John Whitworth

Roger, you want to win, not know the truth. .

A rather presumptuous comment, John. If I only wanted to win, I would not be arguing with a wall. And if you were a repository for the truth, I would expect a verbal and articulate fellow such as yourself to be able to explain his points with actual facts and arguments, an approach that you have yet even to attempt in this thread.

Though you've singled me out, just about everyone else on the thread seems to agree with my point of view. I suppose they all want to win as well and don't care about the truth as revealed to you alone.

[John Whitworth]

Oh don't be silly, Roger. If you are too lazy to follow where I suggest, then here is something for you.

The Economist wrote: "Unfortunately, very few Muslims will accept Ms Hirsi Ali’s full-blown argument, which insists that Islam must change in at least five important ways. A moderate Muslim might be open to discussion of four of her suggestions if the question were framed sensitively. Muslims, she says, must stop prioritising the afterlife over this life; they must “shackle sharia” and respect secular law; they must abandon the idea of telling others, including non-Muslims, how to behave, dress or drink; and they must abandon holy war. However, her biggest proposal is a show-stopper: she wants her old co-religionists to “ensure that Muhammad and the Koran are open to interpretation and criticism”

She is married to Niall Ferguson. He is not a nobody. With these two on my side how can I lose? Except that it is not about losing or winning.

Your rudeness suggests your arguments are threadbare.

[Andrew Mandelbaum]

Originally Posted by John Whitworth

Roger, you want to win, not know the truth. In America she may be all you say. Over here in Europe (which you may know little about) she is a heroine. She is, of course, under sentence of death, and one day she will be killed. She won't be the first. You no doubt remember the gay leader of a party in Holland. But America is far away and none of you are in danger. Yet.

Crossposted with John.

But you are not asking whether we admire her courage or not.

We do.

Or whether we wish her to be kept safe.

We do.

Or whether she has an amazing story.

She does.

You asking whether her take on Islam as interpreted through your soundbites is fair, truthful, and workable as an examination of millions of individuals spread across a spectrum of an evolving religion (if if slow in that department).

Her take, as you parrot it, is not fair, truthful, or workable.

[Roger Slater]

Did you ever think you heard me say that I approved of radical Islam? For yes, of course I agree that it would be great if radical Islamists would change in the ways you've just described. Where we differ, though, is that I do not believe that Hirsi is alone in the Muslim world, and I believe there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who respect secular law and live peaceably with non-Muslims and never have a violent thought or impulse toward anyone. And the refugees are the victims of the radical Islamists, not the individuals who should be demonized. There are doubtless some Christians who still feel that adultery should be a capital offense, but it would be ridiculous to say that this is a general characteristic of Christianity. Don't judge any group by its worst elements. That's the argument I'd most like to "win."