[Maryann Corbett]

Originally Posted by Elise Hempel

What's the point of entering a workshop if you think your poem is already perfect and you're just going to dismiss everything the teachers say?

It's telling that you use the word "teacher." In some cases it's correct; the person posting is inexperienced and looking for instruction. But in other cases, the person posting wants the reaction of peers.

In those cases, it's perfectly reasonable to reply, politely, that a critic has misunderstood. A poem may use specific terms that are meaningful to a narrow audience; if a reader doesn't belong to that audience, that reader will misread. The poet might eventually decide to aim the poem less narrowly. Or not.

And there are other points to posting. One is to say to the world "I'm still working." That might be the case for an experienced poet who's been quiet for a while. As long as the poems are unpublished and the poet offers crits to others, this is legit.

Another is to resolve doubts about whether anybody will understand. If nobody understands, it isn't wrong to reply "This is what I was attempting," and leave it there, waiting to make a private decision about whether to trash the poem or revise it.

It's tempting to believe the critiques we give are the ultimate wisdom and to want to see them followed. I think we have to resist the temptation. I think we have to be wise enough to just offer our thoughts and move on.

[Elise Hempel]

But the "inexperienced" aren't welcome here, right? Someone just reminded me that this isn't a forum for beginners.

The last poem I posted I wasn't sure of, and said so, and someone criticized me for posting a poem I wasn't sure of. So are we to post poems we're completely sure of (and for what reason, if this is a workshop?) or poems we're not sure of?

[Shaun J. Russell]

Excellent post, Maryann.

Elise: where is the argument? I haven't seen one yet, nor have I seen any anger. This has become a circular thread of 40+ posts...about half of which say the same thing.

I think you're making too many assumptions about the people posting. As has been mentioned several times already, different poets are going to use a workshop differently. There's no "one way," and beyond some basic guidelines, how a critique is given and received is totally up to the individual critics and poets. And I think Maryann is right to point out the idea of "teacher." It might be better to think of poets and critics as "colleagues" instead, since the roles of poet and critic are constantly cycled. And some people are just going to post a poem and not respond to comments. It can be annoying sometimes, but that's just life. Some have better "etiquette," as you put it, than others, and no amount of Emily Posting will change that.

[Roger Slater]

Originally Posted by Elise Hempel

Roger,

Sometimes arguments are good and get things done. I don't know why you're so angry about my posting. Maybe I shouldn't have posted at all, but I saw yet another member dismiss every single crit and wondered why he/she posted a poem at all. What's the point of entering a workshop if you think your poem is already perfect and you're just going to dismiss everything the teachers [sic] say?

Just as you don't see the point of posting a poem and then not revising in response to critiques, I don't see the point of posting a question and then not engaging with the answers people have patiently provided. I'm guessing you don't want any answer but "You're absolutely right! Good point!"

Perhaps you should simply accept the fact that you're possibly the only person here who thinks that a failure to revise in reaction to critiques means that the poet must have thought the poem was perfect to begin with. As I said, a poet may be generally satisfied with a poem but wish to put it to a final test. Or a poet may be dissatisfied with the poem but also dissatisfied with the suggestions for improvement. Or maybe the poet is unable to come up with a solution to issues that are raised. In any case, a failure to follow the suggestions made by the "teachers" does not logically suggest that the poet thought the poem was already perfect, no matter how many times you keep insisting that it does.*

If these answers do not strike you as satisfactory, or you disagree with their premises, then by all means you can attempt to explain why. But you haven't done that. You've simply retreated to your initial question, rudely ignoring the people who have taken the time to try to answer the question already. Which suggests to me that you weren't actually seeking an answer to your question but were seeking agreement and praise for your insight.

But I do agree with you when you say "Maybe I shouldn't have posted at all." There's an insight I can get behind.

_____

* It's interesting that you use the word "teachers" to describe people who offer comments and critiques. Maybe that's at the heart of our disagreement.

[Elise Hempel]

I'm sorry, but in response to all of you, certain members said that you're supposed to graciously accept your crits, and other certain members said that this isn't a forum for beginners. I've seen members criticized for both things by other members. I actually don't know what the real rules are at this point.

[Matt Q]

Hi Elise,

I believe it is a mistake to assume that if someone doesn't post a revision or make major changes to their poem they haven't benefited from the critique.

Why revise in haste? It's not always possible or useful. Many people even frown upon it. Sometimes I post revisions in response to critique, but sometimes I lack the time or the inspiration: often the critique makes it clear what needs fixing, but I don't yet know how to fix it and rushing in isn't always seem to be the best move. However, I do take note of what is and isn't coming across to the reader, and the feedback I receive. It all informs revisions that I end up writing at a later date when the poem is fresh again -- and often those revisions benefit from that time and the distance.

Also, what Roger said.

-Matt

[Elise Hempel]

I'm guilty of not revising myself, and that's why I don't post very many poems (besides not having written very much lately). But I do take crits into consideration and say so. I thought there was a rule about accepting crits on Eratosphere (at least that's what someone else said). So is it okay to dismiss every single crit if you're nice about it?

I'm also wondering why I, or anyone else, should spend the time critiquing if the writer merely says, "You didn't understand my poem."

[ross hamilton hill]

Elise, I think the phenomena of online poetry forums has aspects to it that are quite unique, instantaneousness for one, internationalism, and an largely unknown audience (far more 'guests' read the poetry than members).
Poetry forums are not forums, we are not Roman senators, nor are they workshops (there is no shop), they are a fairly unique product of the internet, like YouTube, they have created something truely new, which ezines and blogs havn't. It's bound to be problematic in regards to rules, formats, approaches and politics since it is so new ( I think poetry forums have been going for around 15 years). I've used about 10 different forums over the years, all have a different approach. All have problems of definition.
ie what is criticism, what standards apply, what is good manners? And so on. It is an interesting topic although I'm sure many members have read threads like this before.