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  #11  
Unread 05-02-2015, 03:01 AM
Holly Martins Holly Martins is offline
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I have to say, Julie, that I think you're being a little disingenuous. You're talking about horrible men who force their attentions on women, while I'm talking about normal human courtship behaviour where it is not necessary for boys or girls to ask permission before they touch each other.
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  #12  
Unread 05-02-2015, 03:04 AM
Holly Martins Holly Martins is offline
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If you mean, Ann, is this a subject that you could write a poem about. Yes. If a poem on this subject could entertain or amuse. Also, yes.
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  #13  
Unread 05-02-2015, 07:27 AM
Brian Allgar Brian Allgar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann Drysdale View Post
Me, I'm still trying to decide whether this is a drill or an amusement...
He kissed the girls for his Amusement
And the surreptitious thrill.
Regrettably, he chose a dentist;
Now, he’s suffering her Drill.

Last edited by Brian Allgar; 05-02-2015 at 10:41 AM.
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  #14  
Unread 05-02-2015, 08:06 AM
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Ann Drysdale Ann Drysdale is offline
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No, I meant; why did you post it in this forum? - what were you hoping/expecting we'd do with/to it?

Or were you just chancing your arm, as per the poem?

Oh, dear - just read that and saw how it sounded. Came back to add a smileyface and the editing mode won't let me. Please accept my apologies for apparent po-facedness. Gissa kiss.

.

Last edited by Ann Drysdale; 05-02-2015 at 08:13 AM. Reason: as explained above...
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  #15  
Unread 05-02-2015, 09:36 AM
Chris O'Carroll Chris O'Carroll is offline
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Stolen kisses are so fine.
And stolen gropes still more so.
My fingers pinch her bottom line
And swipe her upper torso.

It's normal courtship. I resent
The tiresome refrain,
Of harpies harping on "consent."
Some chicks are such a pain.
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  #16  
Unread 05-02-2015, 10:36 AM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly Martins View Post
I have to say, Julie, that I think you're being a little disingenuous. You're talking about horrible men who force their attentions on women, while I'm talking about normal human courtship behaviour where it is not necessary for boys or girls to ask permission before they touch each other.
We grew up in two different worlds, Holly.

In your world, like that of many men, asking a girl's consent before touching her is superfluous, if one's intentions are sweet and innocent and not at all threatening to her well-being. Why should she object? It's a high compliment, actually. She should find the attention flattering. The majority of women live in that world, too, and find the validation of their attractiveness flattering.

That world must be a very nice place. But many, many women--like me--never had the privilege of living there.

From early childhood, I was pinned down and subjected to all sorts--and I do mean ALL sorts--of non-consensual sexual dominance behavior from people who got a thrill from disrespecting my personal boundaries. Much of this torture started with kisses I couldn't evade, and then moved onto uglier things I also couldn't evade.

So, early on, I became conditioned to associate foreplay with increasingly horrible afterplay, and to respond to minor uninvited contact as if it were a major sexual assault.

No, a stolen kiss isn't rape. You know that and I know that, logically.

But PTSD has nothing to do with logic. Even if someone's intentions have been sweet and innocent and not at all sinister, almost any non-consensual contact I have experienced after age five or six has triggered an overwhelming fight-or-flight response.

Even today, if my husband of twenty-five years, who is unfailingly kind and gentle around me, touches me when my attention is focused on something else, I jump completely out of my skin. My logic tells me that he's not a threat, but all my anxiety cares about is that someone much larger and stronger and heavier is invading my personal space, and my instincts tell me I'm vulnerable to exactly the kinds of traumatic treatment that I was subjected to as a child. DANGER! DANGER! DANGER!

My parish priest, a very nice man whom I admire, habitually hugs all the women in the parish and kisses them lightly on the cheek, in a mild-mannered and socially appropriate way. I am engulfed by panic every single time it happens to me, even though I know he means no harm. Is he a horrible person? No. Is he acting within acceptable social parameters? Yes. But I find it deeply, deeply unpleasant anyway, and feel violated afterwards. I can't help it. Have I ever had the courage to tell him, or to fend him off in public? No...although a few times I have clutched my throat and croaked, "Oh, better not today," faking a cold that I don't want him to catch. And I avoid him as much as possible, usually going out the side door of the church after Mass so I don't have to greet him on my way out. Since I haven't spelled things out for him, I can't (and don't) blame him for his insensitivity. It hurts me anyway.

Likewise, boys who steal kisses have no way of knowing that behavior they regard as harmless and not a big deal may actually be, from a particular girl's perspective, quite harmful indeed and a very big deal indeed. Girls don't come with labels saying "Hey, I was sexually abused from ages five to seven, handle with care" or "Kiss me if you're cute, and I'll enjoy it."

I really don't see why it's unreasonably onerous to expect the person who wants to initiate courtship behavior--however old or young he or she may be--to get a good idea whether that behavior will actually be welcome before launching into it.

Consent is only a problem if someone EXPECTS the recipient of courtship behavior to say no. And if he or she already KNOWS that the kiss or grope or whatever is likely to be considered unwelcome, and doesn't care, then frankly I lose all sympathy for the plight of the lovelorn party.

It sucks to be rejected, but trust me, it sucks more to have PTSD triggers.
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  #17  
Unread 05-02-2015, 02:40 PM
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John Whitworth John Whitworth is offline
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Perhaps, Julie, it is the difference between San Diego and East Kent.

I have another thught about stolen kisses. The song, a masterpiece it seems to me, is sung by Charles Trenet who was as gay as it is possible to be. The kisses he was stealing were from boys. A risky business, wouldn't you say.

In the Truffaut film Anton is quite small, about the same height as his girlfriend, and spectacularly unco-ordinated. Most girls could flatten him if they so desired.
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  #18  
Unread 05-02-2015, 02:44 PM
Roger Slater Roger Slater is online now
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You don't have to steal what is freely given. And if it's not freely given, stealing is wrong. I would have thought this to be self-evident.
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  #19  
Unread 05-02-2015, 04:03 PM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is online now
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I would like to say for the record that I think Holly's poem bears very accurate and appealing witness to a certain view of reality. My own reality clashes with it, but bearing witness to a certain view of reality happens to be one of the things that poetry is supposed to do. More power to him.
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  #20  
Unread 05-03-2015, 02:40 AM
Holly Martins Holly Martins is offline
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As you say, Julie, your experience is not typical and most women, thankfully, will not have been subject to such terrible happenings. I still think that Jackie Blue's prohibition of any kind of contact without first asking permission is ludicrous. As your example of the priest exemplifies, life just doesn't work like that. Putting on my Dear Abby hat for a moment, couldn't your husband have a quiet word with your priest?
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