[Quincy Lehr]

Not everyone is able to do the retired gentleman poet thing, though, and for those of us at a point in our lives where the pressures of kids, jobs, and a pandemic response that the powers-that-be effectively airballed, having no support to speak of was a real problem for just continuing to do the thing. It's one thing to run one's self ragged as a single person, but it's a lot harder to justify when kids need help with homework, not to mention food, shelter, school supplies, piano lessons, and all the rest.

And yes, that's a kvetch, not really out of butt-hurt that my last book wasn't reviewed in The New York Times or whatever (insert jerkoff motion), but in the sense that just continuing to do the thing is extremely difficult on more than a hobbyist level.

[Michael Cantor]

Damm you, Quincy, I'm neither gentle nor a gentleman!

[Orwn Acra]

I (discreetly) got an MFA in 2021. I didn't tell many people, partially because I told myself I would never get one, and partially because the reason I told myself I would never get one remained true after I got one. You are welcome to DM me with any questions. I will just say that what the program gave me (and it was fully funded; you must, if you decide to do one, make sure it is fully funded) was time (funding gives you that time). I had great professors, but I didn't learn a single thing and didn't expect to. What I learned was what I taught myself while there, and the time the program gave me allowed me to do so. To be able to just think about poetry and to read for two years is something I'll probably never have again. I wouldn't have written Etymologies without that time. Of course, we'll see what happens when it's actually published (April!)

That said, sometimes I posted on these forums the same poems I workshopped for class. The commentary here was absolutely better than what I got in class, comments from some professors excepted.

My professors were invaluable in helping me navigate the "professional" side of poetry: submitting to contests, publishers, etc. Something I have never been that interested in or good at, very much to my disadvantage. One professor forced me to write an artist statement so that he could give me feedback and so that I would have one already written. That was very helpful.

So paradoxically, I think if you are interested in poetry mainly from a career perspective, and a lot of my cohort were, the MFA is pretty useless. It's not going to make you more artistic or creative. But if you would be writing poetry regardless of if anyone reads it, if it's just something you do because it helps you make sense of the world and because it is fun, then the MFA will actually help you a lot because of the time it gives you to be creative. Whatever business-side stuff you learn is just a bonus.

I'll probably delete all of this later.

[Rick Mullin]

Glad I read this before you deleted it, Walter. Very interesting.
RM

[Rick Mullin]

I'm ready to do the retired gentleman poetry thing. Thank you very much.

[Christine P'legion]

Originally Posted by Quincy Lehr

It's one thing to run one's self ragged as a single person, but it's a lot harder to justify when kids need help with homework, not to mention food, shelter, school supplies, piano lessons, and all the rest.

Originally Posted by Orwn Acra

What I learned was what I taught myself while there, and the time the program gave me allowed me to do so. To be able to just think about poetry and to read for two years is something I'll probably never have again.

I think we've cracked it. Maybe for those in the same general life stage as me and Quincy the plan simply has to be to get the kids launched first, and then go get the MFA when we're fifty.

[Julie Steiner]

The kids are launched in my case, so there goes that excuse.

The parents [mine and my husband's] need increasing amounts of time and attention, though. Their golden years have been less-than-golden, to say the least, due to things that are probably genetic. So I've greatly reduced my expectations of how productive my own retirement is likely to be. I'm becoming more impatient about waiting for the best time to do things. The best time may never come.

Thanks for your very valuable comments, Walter. Please don't delete them.

[Sarah-Jane Crowson]

Originally Posted by Quincy Lehr

Not everyone is able to do the retired gentleman poet thing, though, and for those of us at a point in our lives where the pressures of kids, jobs, and a pandemic response that the powers-that-be effectively airballed, having no support to speak of was a real problem for just continuing to do the thing. It's one thing to run one's self ragged as a single person, but it's a lot harder to justify when kids need help with homework, not to mention food, shelter, school supplies, piano lessons, and all the rest.

And yes, that's a kvetch, not really out of butt-hurt that my last book wasn't reviewed in The New York Times or whatever (insert jerkoff motion), but in the sense that just continuing to do the thing is extremely difficult on more than a hobbyist level.

Hi,

This strikes home to me. But I also disagree, to some extent. It's possible to make space (if not time). All it means is that one has to push the practice to the boundaries of living (less sleep, writing on trains, writing whilst waiting for your fractious baby to eventually fall asleep in your arms). As a potentially very irritating practical point, baby-slings are extremely useful if you want/need to keep up with practice whilst you're nursing. And yes, I have written whilst cooking porridge with a breastfeeding baby.

Work clever, make space. And work towards a trajectory where you can make the work pay enough that no-one can call it a hobby? In the UK art world we call this a 'portfolio career', where you'll do a bit of freelance, a bit of teaching, and a bit of work on your own beloved projects. I am not sure how this translates to the US.

And if anyone is thinking, 'Oh, but you're an artist', that's fair enough - but ... I learned the technical arts secondhand (broke girl narrative) working as an artist's model whilst an undergrad to pay my fees. I was a dull nature poet for a long time. I then looked at the market (you'll all hate that phrase probably) and found a place which spoke to my drawing strengths, my strengths in digital technology and my strengths in choosing words. And I started to break even.

But all the time I made the space to make work. And what I made (words-only/ haiku/ art/ drawing) was driven not by my choice but my constraint. During the baby-sling period I wrote haiku. And it wasn't all shit haiku, either.

Age doesn't matter, what you do doesn't matter, whether you need to make money or not doesn't matter unless you need to make money. Just make, if you want to. If you need to monetize then it's more difficult, but maybe think about how you can make space, not time.

Sarah-Jane

[John Riley]

I read a review last night of a new book about the romantic movement in music. Apparently, I haven't read the book yet, The Beloved Vision, the author writes of how the composers of the era were freelancers. I didn't know Litz was rejected by Paris Conservatory and that Elgar or Brahms never studied formally. The thesis is that if they were composers today they'd disappear into a university job and never be heard of again.

I don't think the question is about what we do or have done to care for our families. I started a business in educational publishing and committed my writing and editing to that for decades to give my children a better childhood than I had. I don't regret that. The big question is what has turning literary fiction and poetry into a profession created? Right now it's very clear other considerations instead of the quality of work are being used to admit people to the best programs. Maybe it's the right thing to do for other reasons but that is the point. It's for other reasons. And then there are the hundreds of struggling small private colleges that now have very expensive "low-residency" MFA programs they use to raise money. How is that not corruption? This is not to mention the obvious advantages a student from a privileged family will always have when it comes to being accepted into any school or having the opportunity to be better prepared.

The important question is what has turning the writing of poetry into a profession done to poetry? There are people here who insist that turning away from received meter and rhyme is the reason poetry has lost its appeal when the only type of poetry that has appeal now is spoken poetry which is seldom in meter or a regular rhyme scheme and is seldom if ever written by people with graduate degrees in writing. That is why, imo, giving Dylan the Nobel was a breath of air.

I wonder what getting an MFA would have done to Keats? What sort of poetry would he have written nestled into a steady salary? Hopkins?

These are legitimate questions to anyone who has ended their subscription to Poetry. (I don't know what it's like in other countries, btw.)

Maybe the bigger question is will there be a revolt against the Academy? I don't see it happening. If it happens it will probably be in a medium not dependent on publication in large university press journals. But there is so much noise could it even be noticed?

This is what the article is about.

One more thing--I've never applied to an MFA program so am not writing out of hurt feelings.

[Rick Mullin]

All of my favorite poets had day jobs at the post office, insurance company, and library. The rest were cowboys.