[epigone]

A very interesting contribution, indeed, Clive. I especially enjoyed your analysis of sentence structure, rhetorical patterning and plotting, as you have eloquently analyzed a problem that bothers me in a lot of writing (and speechifying) -- what I would term "glibness" – and which is a product of lapses in intellectual rigor to which my own writing is very susceptible. Fortunately, I am an attorney now, and I have the benefit of wise adversaries who are very keen to point out such lapses. I think poets are in need of such adversaries -- in addition to advocates, of course.

epigone

[Fred Longworth]

Excuse me for jumping into this dialog later on.

What this discussion is largely about is two philosophical questions, though the questions are dressed in the garments of a specific discussion on poetic craft.

The first question can be framed more or less as follows: to what degree is life -- and therefore art reflective of that life -- coherent, consonant, integrated, harmonious and consistent? The second question follows from the first: Assuming that life -- and therefore art -- contains a high degree of coherence, consonance, integration, harmony and consistency, but that purity of same would lead to a bland, anal and overly cerebral style of art (specifically poetry), how much incoherence, dissonance, disintegration, disharmony and inconsistency may or should be added to, or woven into, a tapistry of an artwork, particularly a poem, to make it rich and satisfying aesthetically?

Since I am a jazz fan, I know that this element -- dissonance especially -- is central to the art form. There is in jazz a constant presentation of dissonance that coexists with a continual will toward consonance.

Fred

[This message has been edited by Fred Longworth (edited March 02, 2004).]

[VictoriaGaile]

Clive,

Thank you for this. I have been struggling lately with issues of structure, and in particular, I now see, with issues of plot and rhetorical patterning.

Considering these points via the selected poems that had been workshopped here was especially useful. Thank you for including this in the project!


Curtis,

Interesting (and valid, IMHO) distinction between oversight and mishandling.

Julie,

Thanks for sharing your elephant's eyelash experience. I've run into this as well.

Fred,

Er, what?
I understand what you're saying, I think; but I'm at a loss as to how you draw what you're saying out of what everyone else has been saying.

Off I go to study up on plotting... (can anyone recommend any good books?)

Victoria

[eaf]

Fred, I think jazz fits under that whole alien aesthetics idea. You don't hear Bach hooting out strange chords in the middle of a tune. Many of the folks here seem more inclined towards Bachishness than Miles Davisity (in his more difficult periods) - at least poetically. I suppose if you tried to post one of your pieces on a site for language poetry they'd have your ass for being too coherent!

In any case, I like this discussion, though it appears, as any good CGW-tinged thread, to be wandering around a bit. But that's good too.

-eaf