[Paul Lake]

Having published a fair number of essays and reviews myself, I agree with all four of Dave's points above. It's good for the art to have intelligent criticism about it. Dana Gioia makes the point that we need more negative criticism--that is, honest assessments that don't puff bad or mediocre poetry. If you can write decent prose and deal intelligently with poetry, it's somewhat easier to publish reviews and criticism than poetry. And as Dave says, it helps establish a relationship with an editor.

Except for a two year stint as an occasional reviewer for the Arkansas Democrat Gazette, our state's major newspaper, I've almost never written an essay or even a review because an editor asked me to. I generally write what I want and then shop it around till someone takes it, which usually isn't too long compared to poetry, where even a really good piece can get rejected twenty times before some perspicacious editor takes it.

I've been trying to stop writing criticism for the last few years to focus strictly on creative work. Sill, I was surprised and pleased at the last West Chester conference to have so many people recognize me as the author of an essay they liked. Nothing quite beats writing a good poem, but think of the great essays by contemporaries you've read and how grateful you are to poet critics like Dana Gioia or Dave Mason and think how you too might delight and instruct readers on some poet or poem you admire. It's rewarding in its own right and might even spread good taste and sense in a field where there's often too little of either.

[Tom Jardine]

David,

Your: "Like many others, I feel rather strange using the word "career" in relation to poetry. Frost's uniting of avocation with vocation says it better. In any case, Tim suggested I be available to discuss career issues and I thought I'd begin with one tiny suggestion here."

Vocation is money, isn't it? More or less? So what should a poet do? Teaching, reviews, books on poetry, talks, seminars, etc, are good, but do poetical aspirations relate to ambition?

I see poets heading to the poorhouse when they get older. University pensions? Tenure? Not exactly avocation/vocation, is it, if you can get it?

Poets seem so anxious to be published they let 'editors' push them around.

Don't almost all of the other arts pay? I happen to know a couple poets who would like to make it happen.

What should a poet do, and how can they make poetry pay?

If you have any good ideas, PM me.

TJ

[Steven Schroeder]

Though our submissions page doesn't mention it, and the annual format hurts the currency a little, I'd definitely throw The Eleventh Muse out as a place interested in short or mid-length reviews. We're likely not a "career-building" venue yet, but maybe I can get us there.

------------------
Steve Schroeder

[David Mason]

I'm glad to see Steven's post about the Eleventh Muse.

As for TJ's notes on poetry and money, well, I'm not sure I agree, really. The market bears what the market bears, and it's worth noticing what the market offers for our art in realistic terms. You can make money by bringing poetry to other media if you figure out the problems of distribution and advertisement. But in terms of living one's life, I think it's a good idea to take responsibility from the start for earning a living. I say this as someone who was very, very slow to do so, and ruined a marriage in the process. Get a job. Pay your bills. It won't kill you. Dana Gioia used to work sixty or seventy hour weeks in business, but hold two or more hours per night four nights a weeek for his writing, and some portion of his weekend, and he produced more than any of us.

I'm always happy to get a check for a poem, true, but I've made much more money as a film writer and book editor (not to mention manual laborer and college teacher) than I ever expect to make from poetry.

There's something to be said to devoting yourself to an art that can't make you rich, isn't there? So you've got to really love the art and pursue it for the sake of perfection in the work rather than for riches.

That aside, anything we can do to bring poetry to a wide, discerning readership is fine by me.

[This message has been edited by David Mason (edited September 03, 2004).]

[Tom Jardine]

David,

Excellent response. I think we are agreeing. I just like to provoke things now and then.

I have so many ideas about making money with poetry I pee half-way down the street just thinking about them.

I took RF's advice literally, which advised to marry late and get the art in control first. I lived in a house without central heat of any sort for ten years, with missing windows, birds flying in and out, and wrote lots. Now, now I'm not even published by wnyone else other than me. Talk about slow.

Often, people have much more energy and ability than they think they do.

One of my points is that it is fun to think about and plan for combining avocation and vocation without entering before and standing before the 'judgement' of others--career-wise. I don't want prizes, I want to relate to people. Of course, people always judge/like-dislike, but that is the challenge. You demand nothing you get nothing.

TJ

[Robt_Ward]

The Susquehanna Quarterly is very interested in good book reviews, thought-provoking ones. Any takers? Contact me.

(robt)

[David Mason]

You've got to test yourselves, folks. I urge you to do so at SQ or EM. Janet--why don't you inform the readers at these places about Aussie or Kiwi writers? Others among the far-flung--do your bit for poets most of us have never read--write a review-essay about them.

[Janet Kenny]

David:
Janet--why don't you inform the readers at these places about Aussie or Kiwi writers? Others among the far-flung--do your bit for poets most of us have never read--write a review-essay about them.
David,
I'll try. Australian poetry is so super-fashionable and post post everything that apart from a very few who receive the blessing of the King, Les Murray, it has driven me across the ocean to this forum. The size of the country and the paucity of worthwhile outlets has defeated me on the whole. If I had more money I might be able to do the forensic investigation necessary.

I do know one particular poet whom I think is sadly neglected in Australia, Dennis Greene. He suffers from the increasing effects of early onset Parkinson's but has found a depth and measured thoughtfulness which I am convinced is due partly to his condition.
I can love the writing of Les Murray and his voice has the quintessential Australian accent.

I spent some hours in my New Zealand student days, chatting at social gatherings with James K. Baxter and I have just seen a magnificent biographical documentary about another great New Zealand poet (now dead) Allen Curnow.

My own scattered background with a huge interruption spent in other countries and time consuming vocations, means that I am a little lost and lack confidence.

I'll see what I can muster.
Janet

James K. Baxter


Allen Curnow

Les Murray

[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited September 07, 2004).]

[Clive Watkins]

Curnow is one of the finest English-language poets of the past fifty years. I mean it!

Clive

[Janet Kenny]

Clive, I agree.


This is the Allen Curnow video I watched the other day. It is superb.

Allen Curnow video

Janet

[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited September 08, 2004).]