[Janet Kenny]

Roger Woddis, the British poet once wrote:
Down With Fanatics!

Fanatics are an evil breed
Whom decent men should shun;
I’d like to flog them till they bleed,
Yes, every mother's son,
I'd like to tie them to a board
And let them taste the cat,
While giving praise, oh thank the Lord,
That I am not like that.

[David Landrum]

Originally Posted by Duncan Gillies MacLaurin

Janet's onto something here.

The solitude a poet seeks is the outcome of that poet having an ideological stance.

IsAnti-ideologies are also ideologies.

I think homo sapiens is by its very nature an ideological being.

Duncan

Duncan, I would agree with you up to a point. But I think when we say "ideology" here we mean that destructive variety, the ones that exclude and often destroy those who do not hold to them. Yes, all positions are ideologies to an extent, even my own position that we should not have an ideology! Deridda has pointed out how ideologies create binary oppositions: us/them, believer/unbeliever, party member/party outcast. One side of the binary equation will be favored the other side will be marginalized. So violence is inevitable.

So we speak of ideology, I think we mean this variety of it: the type that excludes, that demarcates and then fears and loathes those who are outside of the ideological circle. This is destructive ideology.

[Duncan Gillies MacLaurin]

Fair enough - on the whole - David, though who gets to say what is destructive? I could imagine that Li Po might have been seen as a dangerous revolutionary if it had been known that he was fishing without a hook and bait. And Socrates was executed for corrupting the minds of the youth. Sometimes a critic of an ideology starts a new ideology that in turn becomes destructive. (Btw you unintentionally misquote me - "IsAnti-ideologies"?)

Great wee poem, Janet!! I'm still chuckling.

Duncan

[Philip Quinlan]

Mark

Ask me this morning what my ideology is and I will have a think about it, examine the idea from a number of angles, possibly engage in some dialogue with you, maybe even retire for some private contemplation or to "phone a friend" or do some research.

Ask me what my ideology is later this afternoon and I will...

etc

The most scary people on earth are the ones who have "made up their minds for all time" and who have the answer before you've finished the question.

Philip

[Mark Allinson]

Duncan, of course you can call anything and everything an "ideology", just as everything can be called "political", but that way fogginess lies.

The article I linked at the top of this thread has the same definition that I would use - I call it "programatic ideology": it seeks to bring about actual change in the present world, to mold reality to its vision. It seeks to make something happen, involving "a single-minded pursuit of an end."

Is religion, in this sense, an ideology - no, because it it not pursuing an end through programatic change in this world. The author writes:

"How delightful to have a key to all the miseries, both personal and societal, and to know personal happiness through the single-minded pursuit of an end for the whole of humanity! At all costs, one must keep at bay the realization that came early in life to John Stuart Mill, as he described it in his Autobiography. He asked himself:

'Suppose that all your objects in life were realized; that all the changes in institutions and opinions which you are looking forward to, could be effected at this very instant: would this be a great joy and happiness to you?” And an irrepressible self-consciousness distinctly answered, “No!” At this my heart sank within me: the whole foundation on which my life was constructed fell down. All my happiness was to have been found in the continual pursuit of this end. The end had ceased to charm, and how could there ever again be any interest in the means? I seemed to have nothing left to live for.'

This is the question that all ideologists fear, and it explains why reform, far from delighting them, only increases their anxiety and rage. It also explains why traditional religious belief is not an ideology in the sense in which I am using the term, for unlike ideology, it explicitly recognizes the limitations of earthly existence, what we can expect of it, and what we can do by our own unaided efforts. Some ideologies have the flavor of religion; but the absolute certainty of, say, the Anabaptists of Münster, or of today’s Islamists, is ultimately irreligious, since they claimed or claim to know in the very last detail what God requires of us."

Total certainty of purpose and the call to immediate action designates what I am calling "ideology" here.

And God help the ideologue should the goal ever be realized. The frenetic energy of flight through action would come to an end and the ego, left without a purpose, would implode with anxiety.

[Roger Slater]

Ideologies seem to be like accents. Everyone has one except me.

[Janet Kenny]

Originally Posted by Roger Slater

Ideologies seem to be like accents. Everyone has one except me.

Roger, that's brilliant.!

[David Landrum]

Originally Posted by Roger Slater

Ideologies seem to be like accents. Everyone has one except me.

Roger, I don't doubt for a moment that everyone has an ideology. I know I do, I feel pretty strongly about it, and I want it to triumph in the world of politics and ideas. However, I realize it is rooted in embedded in my own presuppositions. I do not believe it is sacrosanct and know its derivative quality. I don't see people who oppose it as my enemies or as being further down on the scale of being--if I did, I would say they could be censured in a variety of ways, the ultimate way being by destroying them.

So in the Middle Ages, the interpetation of Christianity that existed in Europe at that time was seen as an ultimate ideology, given from heaven, not subject to debate. Hence, anyone who disputed it was a threat. So when Albigensians (Cathars) start to proliferate, they are seen as a threat to the community are either forced to convert or killed. Many other examples such as this, in all religions and political movements, can be cited.

So I have an ideology. So do you. So does everyone. But that ideology can grow toxic if not held within certain limits, and that is the problem.

[Mark Allinson]

Here's another symptom of a programatic ideology (such as we have in academia today) - say one word against it, and you are permanently ostracized from the company of believers.

It is amazing to see people who champion the principle of tolerance in all things become utterly intolerant of any hint of opposition to the prevailing orthodoxy of the ideology.

[Janet Kenny]

Mark,
I'm passionately against bombs. Is that an ideology?

People who like bombs are passionately against me.

I don't want to hurt the pro-bombers.

I'm not sure they return the compliment.

Are they more fanatical than me?

Or just awful people?

Is religion, in this sense, an ideology - no, because it it not pursuing an end through programatic change in this world.
Aid to poor countries was denied if they accepted condoms for birth control. As a result countless women died and AIDS spread like wildfire. All because of a religious program. I call that ideology.