[R. Nemo Hill]

Far more so, perhaps, that what often passes for a poetic act on the page.

Nemo

[Allen Tice]

May I prod this back to recent poetry that is both about Big Stuff and assertively Formal? Much as I relish the Jane Hirshfield quoted above, it has no regular rhyme or rhythmic structure. What is there is ideas well stated, but it is close to formal verse in some ways. Quite by accident, I encountered her and it at a small poetry reading, and dared to suggest to her a minor change in the last sentence. Oh, no, she naturally said, firmly. Well, I went away serendipitously impressed and 99.6 % satisfied.

What would be the effect of framing much the same poem in a more patterned and thus more memorable form? Would it rise (or for those who are jealous of Pope, descend) to the level of Alexander Pope?

How much of our esthetic is infected by the modern hatred in the arts of Charm?

[Matt Q]

Originally Posted by ross hamilton hill

But the Sphere has a deserved reputation for tough criticism and a lot of women are put off by that approach. There are many poetry forums dominated by women, Neopoet is one. These are self-congratulatory forums with little serious criticism.

Hi Ross,

I started out, and still post, on another forum. I believe there are more women posting there then men, and in my opinion the crit there is significantly tougher than here.This makes me wonder how easy it is to attribute the gender imbalance at the Sphere to toughness of crits.

Presumably there are a lot of other possibilities? Maybe more men than women like to write in form? There's certainly less metrical poetry on the other forum. Alternatively, if you look at the recurring spats and public unpleasantness that occurs here, it does seem to almost always be between men. Maybe that what's puts women off? There aren't any spats at the other forum because the mods don't allow it. In fact, the mods there are very strict, and every rule is policed, and no one argues with the mods, except very, very politely, defensiveness in the face of critique is not tolerated, and critters are not to allowed to argue with other critters opinions. Maybe men's egos are less well adapted to that level of constraint. I'm sure I could come with other possibilities if I tried.

I guess one can generalise from any observed difference but, I am reluctant to accept that women don't like straightforward, honest critique because a) the women I know on poetry forums welcome it, and b) I also tend to assume that anyone looking to improve welcomes it (once they've gotten their ego out the way), and I don't see any a priori reason why women should be any different in this respect.

But what do I know? I would be interested to hear the views of women on the Sphere. Why are there less women here?

best,

Matt

[James Brancheau]

Nah... Andrew's issue is interesting and I won't add to the distractions.

[ross hamilton hill]

I just answered Mary off the top of my head, I can't really remember if many of the poetry forums I have used had more women than men. I know the Sphere is less strictly moderated than some ( but some have no mods at all),
Getting back to the original idea I think many may feel the Sphere has declined because most of us went through a heyday, when online poetry forums suddenly opened up poetry in a way that hadn't occurred since the invention of printing.
I have a poet friend I met online who is one of my closest friends, I have watched her daughter grow up, her marriage fail, another marriage succeed, her son born and now go to school. All conveyed online.
Amazing, such a close friend yet I have never met her. I'm sure many on the Sphere feel that way, although you may have turned online friendships into actual friendships.

[Julie Steiner]

Much as I'd love to keep arguing that I'm right , I'm sorry that the gender issue seems to be derailing Andrew F's original philosophical tangent, which I frankly found more interesting. I agree with Roger that perhaps we could save the gender-specific discussion for another occasion. Right now I'd rather put time and energy into reading and thinking about people's philosophical observations, from which I'm learning a lot.

[Michael F]

If I were asked to name the most philosophically interesting contemporary poets I have read, Wislawa Szymborska and Mary Oliver would probably be the first two names I'd think to mention. Most of their work is free verse, so far as I know.

One of my favorite philosophical poems by a committed formalist is the following. It’s so simple, and yet …


Neither Out Far Nor In Deep

The people along the sand
All turn and look one way.
They turn their back on the land.
They look at the sea all day.

As long as it takes to pass
A ship keeps raising its hull;
The wetter ground like glass
Reflects a standing gull.

The land may vary more;
But wherever the truth may be—
The water comes ashore,
And the people look at the sea.

They cannot look out far.
They cannot look in deep.
But when was that ever a bar
To any watch they keep?

-- Robert Frost

[Esther Murer]

I just dropped in after a couple months of not being in poetic mode. Lots of food for thought on this thread. Lots I could say, too, but that would involve galloping madly off in all directions, so I won't.

Thanks, all.

[John Whitworth]

Philosophy seems to encompass a very wide area if it includes Frost's poem. It seems to me an essentially poetic statement.

[Michael F]

I read it as a comment on epistemology, John, and human thought's ability to grasp the "really real" -- the noumenon, in other words.

Or I should say: that is one of several ways I read it...