[Lee Gurga]

Originally posted by Henrietta kelly:
lee just saw this request to fiddle-- so i did


I think you are missing a perfect opportunity to bring in a new image that of the Grail in place of bowl .

I think this meets all the requirements and gives a result of positive in this case.~~henie


Filling the rich grail
Test of survival what joy
you help with results

Henie, or, to put it another way, THE GRAIL IS ALREADY THERE, as you so perceptively pointed out. One of the haiku ideals is suggestion rather than overt statement. If the grail is already there, what is to be gained by pointing it out explicitly?

In any event, thanks for bringing this up!

Lee

[Lee Gurga]

Originally posted by David Rosenthal:
It didn't occur to me that it was harsh until you asked that question. It still doesn't seem harsh to me, but either you have me all wrong, or (more likely) I have not made myself clear.

I understand everything you said about syllabication, and have read about, thought about, and experimented with ideas about it in haiku for years. I have spent a good deal of time teaching students and other teachers the exact same things about syllabication in haiku that you have repeated here.

I have never thought that using 5-7-5 makes a poem of mine more or less "pure" than it would have been otherwise. Counting syllables that way has been a choice I've made, and an informed choice at that. What I meant to say in my post was that I no longer feel that it has been the best choice, and that the reasons for it are no longer present for me. I was thanking you for helping me arrive at that conclusion, a conclusion I may well have arrived at some other way if not through your critiques in this thread.

In any case I certainly didn't think you were imposing anything (and I am fairly immune to such impositions anyway). I also never intended to abrogate any responsibility for anything I wrote because "form dictates it to me" or for any other reason. As I said I make choices. If I am persuaded to change my mind, that is a choice I make as well.

Also, I am not sure what I have said that might give the impression that I don't think of haiku as poems, but I do, very much so.

David R.

David, you did make yourself clear--i am the one that didn't. from what you said, it was clear that you were going to reexamine form when you revised. my remarks are aimed at the person who is not willing to reexamine commitment to any arbitrary form. i hope i have made my self clearer this time around!

Lee

[Mary Meriam]

brown oak leaf
falls on the lake
then light rain

Thanks, Lee! This one was custom written for the turd festival

Haven't had a chance to read all the new posts closely, but did manage to write another one while out driving. Please crit - thanks!


Osage oranges
on the ground
no Osage in sight

[Cally Conan-Davies]

Thanks for 'Four in the Morning', Lee! Yes - that's just what I was trying to net - that feeling of 4am. Not late night, not quite dawn. I know the Larkin, but honestly had forgotten it was 4 in the morning.

I put the 4am in the third line, as that was the order of perception. I woke. It was dark. I made a cup of tea, poured it, and watched steam rising from the cup, then walked to the computer, clicked the mouse and read the time in the corner of the screen - 04.00AM. And the insubstantialness of that time made a leap to the steam coming from the cup.

The aspect of haiku that has been intriguing me for the last 24 hours is line order. I know you have mentioned it several times, and referred to the 'context' line, and how it is best early in the poem, not as a surprise ending. I like this way you articulated how you see the tying of the three elements.

universal < particular > human

And I wonder - can these three elements correspond to the 3 lines? can the 'context' be any of these three elements? can you rearrange the order of these three elements? or is it always more successful to stick with the order of perception?

I am feeling a little uncertain about the 'context' line - and I am reading lots of haiku to teach myself to understand, and sometimes the context line is clear to me, sometimes not.

If you can figure out what I am trying to say here, I'd love some further explication from you. Equally, feel free not to add anything, as I know you have said it here, and in your illuminating essays that Steve posted here. I just hoped some other little illustration might occur to you! I must tell you that all your little comments on each post are really growing in me.

But as I say, I am happy to be the blind moth, butting against the window!

Cally

[David Rosenthal]

Originally posted by Lee Gurga:

David, you did make yourself clear--i am the one that didn't. from what you said, it was clear that you were going to reexamine form when you revised. my remarks are aimed at the person who is not willing to reexamine commitment to any arbitrary form. i hope i have made my self clearer this time around!

Lee

Lee,

As the young folks say, "it's all good." For the record, I thought you were crystal clear, I just wanted make sure I was. I often post here under extreme time pressure, and I am never sure how well I have said a thing.

Anyway, I am thoroughly enjoying this master class, and perhaps for the first time beginning to feel some things about haiku that I might have known all along. I have certain intuitions, for example, about substituting feet in an iambic line or carrying an enjambment from a female ending to a headless iamb, etc. But I am only beginning (after years!) to develop the same sort of feel for haiku lines, and I feel like this thread is helping me get at some things.

So...onward.

David R.



[This message has been edited by David Rosenthal (edited October 25, 2008).]

[Chiago Mapocho]

Hi Lee, would you consider some of these? Thanks again for your comments and helpful hints. Before this, I hadn't written even one haiku--now, with the help from your links and your knowledge, I feel I understand it (at least partially). It's been a fun couple of a days.

december field
bare trees
framing moon

past the garden gate
into the wheat
the wind with a horse

june lake rising
hook taking with it
some fish constellations


an ox-drawn plow
face marmelade jars
in the flowerbed

august moon
rabbits in the open
mink storm

autumn storm
coat scalloping
with wind

far stars
plum trees the giraff's
neck stretches


twilight's edging
tire swing overflows
with jar flies and ladybugs


Mary,

I rather like your second haiku. The tenderness makes it for me. If I'm interpretting it right, the kiss for you is both a kiss on the lips, and the kiss of eyes *on* air. And, the darkness that comes mirror the darkness when lips meet lips. This one strikes me as more than what it seems on first sight.

close your eyes
this is my kiss
for you




[This message has been edited by Chiago Mapocho (edited October 20, 2008).]

[Brian Watson]

Thank you Lee.

I see what you mean, and on reflection I'm not interested in reading fanciful haiku either. What I like about Basho is the quality of reality, like "drinking cold snow-water from a tin cup".

Regards,
B.

[Henrietta kelly]

Originally posted by Lee Gurga:
Henie, Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions! In place of the grail, i think i will stick with the center of the galaxy . . .

Lee

a black hole?? lord I would never have thought that way,

[Henrietta kelly]

Originally posted by Lee Gurga:
Henie, or, to put it another way, THE GRAIL IS ALREADY THERE, as you so perceptively pointed out. One of the haiku ideals is suggestion rather than overt statement. If the grail is already there, what is to be gained by pointing it out explicitly?

In any event, thanks for bringing this up!

Lee

Hmm! Is that why there are set images for the seasons and other things in the old masters writings? But what if we don't know the allusion,

you say bowl
I see grail
You say hub of the universe—meaning empty space

And I see the black hole— and laugh at the way my mind went

That’s why I like this thread. it is taking us all on mind trips, and is how sites like this should work. Poets sparking off each other.,. --loveit ~~ Henie

[Cally Conan-Davies]

Brian - really?? Did Basho really write that??

You won't believe this, but I swear it's true. I am looking down at a page where, over the last week, I have been writing down all the sense-experiences I have had that really matter to me, in my heart. And here are my words staring at me -

drinking billy tea from a tin mug


Have I discovered my inner-Basho??!!


Cally