[Lee Gurga]

Originally posted by Mary Meriam:
Henie, I remember the one you wrote about the screen and plum jam. Are you still working on that one?

Lee, I'm from New Jersey-New York, but I live in the Ozarks - not too far from you, I think - where the Osage Indians used to live. As for the cold bed - I meant for there to be a pause at the end of the second line - so that the reader assumes L3 will be "body" or something, but it's just a blanket. I think the bed and kiss ones I wrote this morning drifted perhaps a bit too far away from the true form. Speaking of which, I've caught up on all the posts. My feeling about form is to learn it and follow it as closely as possible, because I believe there is so much to learn from each form. I think even Shakespeare's sonnets do not vary much from strict iambic pentameter. On the other hand, I felt the haiku opened up for me as soon as I let go of the syllable count. I read somewhere that the haiku has many rules, and who can follow all the rules? So letting go of one rule seems fine to me. In case I wasn't clear enough earlier, ahem, the brown leaf is a turd, ok, but damned if I'm inviting the world into my bathroom!

Anyhow, Lee, thanks again for your crits. I have a question for you or Steve C. What about those two line haiku? Or I've seen a few of yours with about 8 lines, maybe - skinny, with a longer line the middle. What's with that?

Chiago, thanks for your tender response. I like this one of yours:

autumn storm
coat scalloping
with wind

Cally, that's a good idea about the list of sensory experiences. I've been thinking along those lines, too, though I haven't written anything down. I just feel more aware of everything, thanks to studying haiku.

cold bed
I need another
blanket

close your eyes
this is my kiss
for you

brown oak leaf
falls on the lake
then light rain

Osage oranges
on the ground
no Osage in sight

PS: Cally, yeah, magic and love, for sure. Both, lol.

Originally posted by Mary Meriam:
Henie, I remember the one you wrote about the screen and plum jam. Are you still working on that one?

Lee, I'm from New Jersey-New York, but I live in the Ozarks - not too far from you, I think - where the Osage Indians used to live. As for the cold bed - I meant for there to be a pause at the end of the second line - so that the reader assumes L3 will be "body" or something, but it's just a blanket. I think the bed and kiss ones I wrote this morning drifted perhaps a bit too far away from the true form. Speaking of which, I've caught up on all the posts. My feeling about form is to learn it and follow it as closely as possible, because I believe there is so much to learn from each form. I think even Shakespeare's sonnets do not vary much from strict iambic pentameter. On the other hand, I felt the haiku opened up for me as soon as I let go of the syllable count. I read somewhere that the haiku has many rules, and who can follow all the rules? So letting go of one rule seems fine to me. In case I wasn't clear enough earlier, ahem, the brown leaf is a turd, ok, but damned if I'm inviting the world into my bathroom!

Anyhow, Lee, thanks again for your crits. I have a question for you or Steve C. What about those two line haiku? Or I've seen a few of yours with about 8 lines, maybe - skinny, with a longer line the middle. What's with that?

Chiago, thanks for your tender response. I like this one of yours:

autumn storm
coat scalloping
with wind

Cally, that's a good idea about the list of sensory experiences. I've been thinking along those lines, too, though I haven't written anything down. I just feel more aware of everything, thanks to studying haiku.

cold bed
I need another
blanket

close your eyes
this is my kiss
for you

brown oak leaf
falls on the lake
then light rain

Osage oranges
on the ground
no Osage in sight

PS: Cally, yeah, magic and love, for sure. Both, lol.

Hi Mary, Thanks for the long and thoughtful response. It is my pleasure to respond to your poems. Interesting that you feel haiku opened up for you when you let go of the syllable count. everyone knows about the 17, so no matter what you write, there will be an at least unconscious comparison in the reader's mind between what you wrote and that 17. And any difference, of course, is an opportunity for the poet to develop tension and interest, as, for example, in something like this:

dancing to my tune (5)
cricket (not 7!)
in the urinal (at this point, who cares?)

I try not to think of the haiku rules as 'rules' but just guidelines. A poem can fail when following them all as well as it can in breaking them all. The poet's job, of course, is to figure out what to follow and what to break. As we are all finding out, it is not always an easy decision! And perhaps others of you have had this experience: sometimes I don¡¦t know what is wrong with a poem until I see it in print. Very humbling!

On your 'cold bed', i am afraid i didn't get the idea that a person would appear in the third line. Perhaps this is because of the presence of the word 'another' in the second line? If you are thinking persons, do you want the reader to conclude you are interested in a menage a trois?

Two-line haiku. As you may know, japanese haiku are traditionally written in one vertical line, not in the three that we have been led to believe. As a result, some poets think English-language haiku should also be written in one line, and i have written a fair number in this form. Since haiku normally present two images, some poets think two lines are an appropriate way to present these images. I guess the point is that the lineation is one of the issues the poet should consider when writing each and every poem. And why not?

As to what i am doing these days, i was hoping to avoid talking about it. But since you asked, i think it would be rude to fail to reply. The two issues involved in my answer will be form and taxonomy.

As far as form is concerned, there are several issues involved in my thinking. First, in haiku i feel there should be a break or turn at the end of each line. Otherwise, why choose to break the line there? As you have seen, the break between the two images is often indicated and qualified by the poet's use of punctuation.

The second issue has to do with what one is trying to do--the scope of the poem if you will. There are several ways of looking at this issue. One is stated by Haruo Shirane in his 'Traces of Dreams,' where he writes that a haiku should be written and interpreted at the intersection of two axes, 'a vertical axis, based on a perceived notion of cultural past, [and] a horizontal axis, based on contemporary life and social order (5).' So one thing i am thinking about in relation to my haiku (including form) is this intersection of ideational axes. Another has to do with the schema i introduced earlier"

realm
of
the
spirit
realm of the senses
realm
of
the
heart

This for me is a haiku ideal: to connect the realm of the senses with the realm of the spirit through experience of the physical world, including the world of the seasons. And it is often the seasons that provide the resonance necessary to connect these two worlds. With these ideas on mind, i have begun experimenting with my haiku in a form that turns with each line. For example, here is a haiku that appeared in MH recently:

sky
smudged
with
blackbirds
another woman passes by
who
is
not
you

In this haiku, the form nearly follows the schema above if you consider the first line reaching up into the sky for a sign and the third line reaching into the heart for a sigh. The second thing I need to bring up in response to you, Mary, is taxonomy. I have not been so concerned lately about whether or not what I am writing is haiku. I just write what I want and if people want to think about whether or not it is haiku I leave that to them. Here is a poem of the kind you seem to have been referring to that was published in Philip Rowland¡¦s fine magazine NOON,

earth
scorched
place
where I burn the letters that I write to you
has
become
a
shrine
an offering to the wicked gods
who
brought
me
you

As you can see from these two, I have been working on love poems lately. about a year and a half ago I went into a Border¡¦s and noticed that fully half the anthologies were on a single subject: love. So I thought I would try my hand at it.

So I hope this addresses adequately your questions about form and number of lines in relation to my own recent work. I am pretty sure that by now you are sorry you asked! ļ

Someone mentioned haibun, a form that unites haiku with prose or a prose poem. I have tried to avoid muddying the water here by posting too much of my own work, but as long as I am running off at the mouth, I thought perhaps I would share a haibun or two. the first is composed of a haiku and a prose poem:

[begin haibun]

.........................Alpha and Omega

..................................a parting kiss . . .
..................................mating monarchs tumble
..................................in mid-flight

.........................In the beginning
.........................you threw your leg over mine
.........................And the earth was without form, and void
.........................as I looked up into your eyes
.........................And God saw the light, that it was good
.........................as you bent down to kiss me
.........................And God said, Let us make man in our image
.........................as you touched my cheek
.........................And God said, Behold I have given you every herb and every tree
.........................as you moved your hand inside my shirt
.........................And the Lord God said, It is not good that man should be alone
.........................as you told me why you can never say ¡§I love you.¡¨

[end haibun]

The second, paragraph of prose and a poem that I will leave up to you whether it is a haiku:

[begin haibun]

The Dress

I am at a party, saying poems to the friend sitting next to me on the couch. Someone overhears the word ¡§dress¡¨ and the room is suddenly quiet¡Xeveryone wants to know what we are talking about. Perhaps they think we have some new tidbit about Monica¡¦s Blue Dress. I explain that I was sharing a poem that had just been accepted for publication. Before I read the poem, I tell them about Philip Rowland¡¦s magazine NOON, published in Tokyo, of its purity and selectivity, handmade in the Japanese style, each poem alone on a page, without the author¡¦s name. And of my ambition to get into it.

I tell them about a cold morning in November, just me and my father. Years before, I had been to Japan and bought some fabric for my mother. Silk, blue and white and pink, covered with thousands of miniature Mt. Fujis. I had completely forgotten about it. She made dress out of it¡XI remember it now. My father says it was her favorite dress, something she never told me. I tell them she is wearing it now. Then I read the poem:

we
linger
at
breakfast
mother¡¦s burial dress
on
a
hanger
in
the
car

[end haibun]

Enough for now?

Lee

[Lee Gurga]

Originally posted by fivefootone:
Lee, I've revised a few yet again and have one new one. Any comment would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for putting up with my repeated attempts. Your efforts in teaching and critting our work has been stellar! I've fallen in love with haiku!

Donna

Delighted to have been of service! Below . . .

thunderheads roil
prairie dust rises
to meet the rain

much less static, wouldn't you say?

black curtain of clouds
the switchgrass twirls
then bows to the breeze

much nicer! full of energy!

neighbors porch steps lined
with unmowed grass and dead leaves
flowers, cards and candles

very nice!

Lee

[David Rosenthal]

Originally posted by Cally Conan-Davies:
David R - I hope you don't mind me saying that your revisions have made a dramatic difference! How exciting!

How could a mind such a generous compliment? Thank you.

David R.

[David Rosenthal]

Originally posted by Lee Gurga:

driving
home
alone
no not alone
the
grass
hopper
re-
minds
me

if you have never taken a ride with a grasshopper in the car, i can recommend it for excitement!

Lee

I centered it for you (you just put "center" in brackets before the text, and "/center" in brackets after it). How about a car full of eight-year-old girls and a wasp. That might be more of sonnet than a haiku.

Thanks, Lee, for your comments on my latest post, and all of your comments throughout the thread. If the rumors are true that this is your last day here, let me say again how grateful I am for your generosity and insight. It has been a great pleasure.

Best,

David R.

[Lee Gurga]

ATTENTION ALL!

please post the final versions of your turd haiku so i can send them to Modern Haiku editor Charles Trumbull for judging! Thanks!

Lee

[Mary Meriam]

Lee, I'm rushing at work so have to hurry - see you later today on the thread - here's my turd poem:

brown oak leaf
falls on the lake
flustered

Mary Meriam

revised last line!!! stole, er, inspired by Steve C's.



[This message has been edited by Mary Meriam (edited October 21, 2008).]

[Donna English]

Lee, my poo-poo poem:

third flush in a row
a buoyant howdy-doodie
keeps popping back up

Donna

[David Rosenthal]

already flushed twice,
the cheerful little turdlet
pops back up again


David R.

[Lee Gurga]

Originally posted by David Rosenthal:
I centered it for you (you just put "center" in brackets before the text, and "/center" in brackets after it). How about a car full of eight-year-old girls and a wasp. That might be more of sonnet than a haiku.

Thanks, Lee, for your comments on my latest post, and all of your comments throughout the thread. If the rumors are true that this is your last day here, let me say again how grateful I am for your generosity and insight. It has been a great pleasure.

Best,

David R.

David, thank you for your kind words. Yes, i am checking out today. It has been a great pleasure. And i will look forward to the sonnet!

Lee

[Stephen Collington]

Originally posted by Lee Gurga:
ATTENTION ALL!

please post the final versions of your turd haiku so i can send them to Modern Haiku editor Charles Trumbull for judging! Thanks!

Lee

Hi Lee, Charles,

Now here's one competition I don't want to miss out on!

flushed but unflustered
and cheerfully popping back
to stay . . . undeterred

Anyway, a note to Charles: we were thrilled to have Lee as our Distinguished Guest again this year . . . but we'd be delighted if you could join us too some time. Maybe you could come as a pair, you and Lee together. Sort of, you know, tag team. We could call it something like

MH Tag Team Haiku SMACKDOWN!

Now that would draw a crowd!

Hope you enjoy judging our stinky creations!

Steve C.