[Michael Juster]

"Will it get out of hand?" strikes me as code for an expectation of a muted response that will allow business as usual to continue with these nations sponsoring terrorism. I want to see the sponsors of this kind of killing stopped before they get their hands on nuclear weapons--which they have apparently been trying to do. For the record, the suggestion that we throw Israel to those set on genocide in order to protect ourselves also doesn't strike me as terribly principled.

[Alan Sullivan]

For once I agree with Caleb. Evil can certainly have a favorite poem. There is no defense in art. Neither is there any defense in hand-wringing.

I have heard much talk about bringing the organizers of this deed "to justice." I think they should be sent to Allah, and I would do so personally, if I had the means and the opportunity.

They are an abomination in the eyes of their own God.

A.S.

[Solan]

Michael, I do not write in code. Maybe someone else would have done so with the same words; but I am known for saying precisely what I mean, and meaning precisely what I say. If I had meant to say anything else, I would have said something else.

------------------
Svein Olav

.. another life

[A. E. Stallings]

Let's move this discussion over to General Conversation, as I think it is a bit "off topic" for Musings on Mastery. Thanks.

[Nigel Holt]

Michael,

I would like to deal with your comments in two parts, if I may.

"Will it get out of hand?" strikes me as code for an expectation of a muted response that will allow business as usual to continue with these nations sponsoring terrorism. I want to see the sponsors of this kind of killing stopped before they get their hands on nuclear weapons..."

Unfortunately, we are 56 years (at least) too late in this endeavour. Since 1945 the British and American Secret Services - MI6 and the OSS - have been operating terrorist cells in Europe and elsewhere. As the war in Europe came to an end, allied secret service officers actively began the recruitment of SS, SD and Gestapo personnel for work in post-war intelligence. The most famous of these was Operation Gladio, or Stay Behind. This entailed the recruitment of said Nazis and their placement as anti-communist terrorists/guerillas throughout Italy and the rest of Europe. This was done without the knowledge of many government officials either from The US/UK axis or the host governments. Destabilisation in Greece and Italy are recorded as having been committed by Gladio operatives. For example, The Italian Red Brigade was infiltrated by Gladio facists (many of them Lucio Gelli's P2 Masons) and took over their operations from the late 1950's onwards. The Red Brigade was responsible for the assassination of Italian PM Aldo Moro. In Belgium, Gladio operatives who were senior Beligian Gendarmes organised a series of fatal supermarket robberies in the 1970's. Again fascist Gladio cells have been incriminated. These militias or cells are still operative. These groups were supported at the highest level.

As far as Osama Bin Laden is concerned, he was trained and funded throughout the Mujahadeen resistance to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan by the CIA. Indeed, he was the most important conduit of American arms and funds to the Afghans until the end of the war. This is a case of someone who has given his handlers the slip - whatever his aims may be.

In response to your second point:

"...For the record, the suggestion that we throw Israel to those set on genocide in order to protect ourselves also doesn't strike me as terribly principled."


I believe this statement misrepresents the actual positions of those concerned. It is also unhelpful given the inflammatory language in which it is couched.

Firstly - those set on genocide. Who exactly would that be? As far as I am aware, and I work on a daily basis with Palestinians, the only concern they have is that their relatives are being attacked and killed by an occupying force. If you are in any doubt that Israel is occupying these territories, I would ask you to consult United Nations Resolutions from the 1960's to ascertain that indeed the West Bank and Gaza are acknowledged internationally as occupied Territories. As I have pointed out in the past, Palestinians are an ethnic group - not a religious one. Indeed, many Palestinians are not Muslim, a large number are Marionite or Orthodox Christian. Beit Jala and Bethlehem are majority Christian towns. They are currently surrounded by tanks and are shelled on a regular basis, and are strafed by helicopter gunships on occasion.

What I see happening here is the conflation between a terrorist group which proclaims itself Muslim (and when the Muslim world has gone out of its way to actively deny this is the case, as their behaviour is against the tenets of Islam) and a national resistance to one of America's allies, the majority of whom are coincidentally Muslim. The fact that the Israeli lobby in the US is sufficiently strong to make or break a government of any hue, seems sufficient reason foe successive administrations to support Israel.

There is no doubt in my mind that the use of violence by anyone is wrong and is ultimately counterproductive. What I do see though, and this is seen by many people in growing numbers is that a state is denying a large minority of people the right to statehood on land that is only theirs by right of force majeure. Furthermore, this state is supported financially and morally by the United States. The US has not shown equanimity to the two parties concerned, indeed, the actions of the Israeli state have equalled or even exceeded the actions of the Apartheid regime that once ruled South AFrica. It is this lack of fairness, or perception of lack of fairness, that has meant many in the Arab and Muslim world have shown growing antipathy to US foreign policy aims.

Israel is superbly well-equipped - as it needed to be given the past acts of hostility shown in the past by its Arab neighbours. Those times have passed to a large degree. Egypt and Jordan have signed treaties, Lebanon is emasculated after decades of war, Syria shows willing to negotiate with the ascension of Bashar Al Assad, and the Gulf stetes are tied too closely to US ol consumption to want to do anything. - it is only the loose cannon of Iraq that is the problem - but it is also the problem of every regime internationally and in the region too.

If America were to stop its direct and partisan support of the Isaelis, and the bringing in of a multi-national UN force to separate the factions, it would, to my mind, bring about at least the halting of the horrific tally of dead people - Palestinian and Israeli. It does not help that Americas continued support for a hawk and suspected war criminal, Ariel Sharon, remains unabated by the rising death toll. It should not be forgotten that the Palestinians have very few arms - many are home-made - the Israelis however have the most powerful armed forces in the region. Unless serious attempts are made at peace, which includes the use of US pressure to bring Israel to the table, the genocide may well go the opposite way to which you suggest. It should not be forgotten that it has been the Israelis who have abrogated the Oslo agreement and every serious effort for peace in recent years. Their persistent colonisation of occupied territory flies in the face of international law - as does their extrajudicial killings of Palestinian politicians on suspicion of anti Israeli activity.

I wanted to post this only to give perspective on what I feel hardly understood outside of the west. I would not like to see the continuing death toll accelerate - my wish is that with a little perspective on events, we can all - wherever we may be - breathe a little easier in the coming times.

Nigel

[A. E. Stallings]

I am closing this topic here, and moving it to General Talk, where it belongs. Thanks.