Eratosphere Forums - Metrical Poetry, Free Verse, Fiction, Art, Critique, Discussions Able Muse - a review of poetry, prose and art

Forum Left Top

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Unread 06-15-2002, 02:13 AM
Jim Hayes Jim Hayes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Kilkenny, Kilkenny, Ireland
Posts: 4,949
Post

Carl,
in the doubtful event that Chesterton was quite as self- effacing as you contend, we can hope that he was graceful enough to take time to send a note to Mrs Cornford to such effect.

At any rate this thread is not about the respective poetic merits of Housmann or Chesterton, such are pretty well established, but rather, on two petty parodies marginally better than Roger's.

Jim





[This message has been edited by Jim Hayes (edited June 15, 2002).]
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Unread 06-15-2002, 10:07 AM
A. E. Stallings A. E. Stallings is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 3,205
Post

Yes, I know, this IS the Frances Cornford thread... apologies.

But proof that Chesterton knew a triolet when he saw one. Not a brilliant example, but still:

TRIOLET

G.K. Chesterton

I wish I were a jelly fish
That cannot fall downstairs;
Of all the things I wish to wish
I wish I were a jellyfish
That hasn't any cares
And doesn't even have to wish
'I wish I were a jellyfish
That cannot fall downstairs.'

Reply With Quote
  #23  
Unread 06-15-2002, 01:11 PM
hector hector is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London, England
Posts: 248
Post

The observer in the train is sitting in a comfortable seat (I will not speculate on whether she is in first- or second-class) in an enclosed carriage so that she need make no effort or take any responsibility for her movements, and has the leisure to look out of the window and draw instant inferences about someone seen in passing.
The subject of the poem is walking. Where to or from? She wears gloves; why not gardening gloves? She wears boots. The ground may be boggy. There may be a Wilkinsonian spade nearby. By the very nature of train travel (see A Child's Garden of Verses as well as Larkin) the observer cannot tell- although she (I make the rather unfair assumption that the observer in the train is a woman, because Cornford was a woman) infers- very much about the woman in gloves. The woman may be fat, or she may be Rubensesque- it's a matter of taste... in fact, I find myself wondering if the poem is a portrait- a miniature dramatic monologue- and if so is it so successful as to be a failure?
As to Larkin: I think Larkin's persona in his poems is (like Housman's) a lot more complicated and distanced than many people believe.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Unread 06-15-2002, 03:21 PM
Carl Sundell Carl Sundell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Lubbock, Texas USA
Posts: 220
Post

Jim Hayes

"in the doubtful event that Chesterton was quite as self- effacing as you contend"

Doubtful? I guess you know something I don't. Care to share it?

I know what this thread is about. I also know that nobody should be allowed to slam a writer without somebody coming to his defense.


Reply With Quote
  #25  
Unread 06-15-2002, 04:19 PM
Terese Coe Terese Coe is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 7,489
Post

Dear Clive

I don't find the speaker in Larkin's poem mean-spirited in the least. I'm not sure if you are referring in particular to his words "religious wounding"? This as you know refers to religious ecstasy, I think one of his little jokes.

As an American I should add that I'm not familiar with the phenomenon of Whitsun weddings. I take it everyone in England likes to marry on one and the same day? How peculiar! That must mean the 20-somethings have several weddings to go to on the same day every year! Surely someone should find light verse in that...The forerunner of Rev. Moon's wedding day for thousands! Heaven help them!

Larkin's speaker shows his unquenchable love for the humanity he passes. The train slows, stops and accelerates at every station, so one assumes he sees a great deal more than one would from a speeding train. Every word is utterly believable, indeed the leisurely pace of the weighed reflections, as well as the length of the poem, invites the reader to empathize with the speaker as close to perfectly as imaginable. Though it is evident that some of the sights are amusing and even somewhat psychologically alien to the speaker, they never approach pathos, to my mind, and he never approaches bile.

There is one grammatical point in S6 that jars:

Free at last,
And loaded with the sum of all they saw,
We hurried towards London, shuffling gouts of steam.

["They" saw but "we" hurried? Why not "we" saw?] Thanks for bringing up this interesting contrast, Clive!

Terese


The Whitsun Weddings [Larkin]

That Whitsun, I was late getting away:
Not till about
One-twenty on the sunlit Saturday
Did my three-quarters-empty train pull out,
All windows down, all cushions hot, all sense
Of being in a hurry gone. We ran
Behind the backs of houses, crossed a street
Of blinding windscreens, smelt the fish-dock; thence
The river's level drifting breadth began,
Where sky and Lincolnshire and water meet.

All afternoon, through the tall heat that slept
For miles inland,
A slow and stopping curve southwards we kept.
Wide farms went by, short-shadowed cattle, and
Canals with floatings of industrial froth;
A hothouse flashed uniquely: hedges dipped
And rose: and now and then a smell of grass
Displaced the reek of buttoned carriage-cloth
Until the next town, new and nondescript,
Approached with acres of dismantled cars.

At first, I didn't notice what a noise
The weddings made
Each station that we stopped at: sun destroys
The interest of what's happening in the shade,
And down the long cool platforms whoops and skirls
I took for porters larking with the mails,
And went on reading. Once we started, though,
We passed them, grinning and pomaded, girls
In parodies of fashion, heels and veils,
All posed irresolutely, watching us go,

As if out on the end of an event
Waving goodbye
To something that survived it. Struck, I leant
More promptly out next time, more curiously,
And saw it all again in different terms:
The fathers with broad belts under their suits
And seamy foreheads; mothers loud and fat;
An uncle shouting smut; and then the perms,
The nylon gloves and jewellery-substitutes,
The lemons, mauves, and olive-ochres that

Marked off the girls unreally from the rest.
Yes, from cafes
And banquet-halls up yards, and bunting-dressed
Coach-party annexes, the wedding-days
Were coming to an end. All down the line
Fresh couples climbed aboard: the rest stood round;
The last confetti and advice were thrown,
And, as we moved, each face seemed to define
Just what it saw departing: children frowned
At something dull; fathers had never known

Success so huge and wholly farcical;
The women shared
The secret like a happy funeral;
While girls, gripping their handbags tighter, stared
At a religious wounding. Free at last,
And loaded with the sum of all they saw,
We hurried towards London, shuffling gouts of steam.
Now fields were building-plots, and poplars cast
Long shadows over major roads, and for
Some fifty minutes, that in time would seem

Just long enough to settle hats and say
I nearly died,
A dozen marriages got under way.
They watched the landscape, sitting side by side
- An Odeon went past, a cooling tower, And
someone running up to bowl - and none
Thought of the others they would never meet
Or how their lives would all contain this hour.
I thought of London spread out in the sun,
Its postal districts packed like squares of wheat:

There we were aimed. And as we raced across
Bright knots of rail
Past standing Pullmans, walls of blackened moss
Came close, and it was nearly done, this frail
Travelling coincidence; and what it held
stood ready to be loosed with all the power
That being changed can give. We slowed again,
And as the tightened brakes took hold, there swelled
A sense of falling, like an arrow-shower
Sent out of sight, somewhere becoming rain.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Unread 06-15-2002, 09:16 PM
Freda Edis Freda Edis is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Glasgow, Strathclyde, Scotland
Posts: 136
Post

Interesting, Nigel. I haven't re-read Cornford in many years. I know she treats of the darkness of the human spirit in her later work, though her language is always simple.

I must admit that I used to find her expression mawkish and overly-innocent, without the redeeming humour of, for example, Stevie Smith, who wrote about much the same subjects.

'Parting in Wartime' is an effective poem, though.

Maybe I need to re-read her? Go on, persuade me!

Freda
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Unread 06-18-2002, 09:02 AM
hector hector is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London, England
Posts: 248
Post

Sorry if I was a bit ratty about Fc last time: some tablets I was prescribed had odd side-effects.
The reason for "Whitsun weddings" was that until the 1960s(?) people who married before Whitsun had various unintended tax benefits. Both FC and PL are detached from the scenes they observe, and where PL tries to imagine identity FC (or the poem's narrator) tends to pejoratise what she sees.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Unread 06-20-2002, 07:44 AM
Jan D. Hodge Jan D. Hodge is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sioux City, IA
Posts: 905
Post

So maybe the thread is ready for another Cornford? To balance that "dark side" of her work, how about this, which I have long liked?

The Guitarist Tunes Up

With what attentive courtesy he bent
Over his instrument;
Not as a lordly conquerer who could
Command both wire and wood,
But as a man with a loved woman might,
Inquiring with delight
What slight essential things she had to say
Before they started, he and she, to play.

Jan


[This message has been edited by Jan D. Hodge (edited June 20, 2002).]
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Unread 06-20-2002, 08:16 AM
RCL's Avatar
RCL RCL is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 6,808
Post

Jan, I like it! Is it "bent," not "bend"?

Cheers,

------------------
Ralph
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Unread 06-20-2002, 02:43 PM
Jan D. Hodge Jan D. Hodge is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sioux City, IA
Posts: 905
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by RCL:
Jan, I like it! Is it "bent," not "bend"?
Yep. Sorry. Corrected on post. Thanks.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Forum Right Top
Forum Left Bottom Forum Right Bottom
 
Right Left
Member Login
Forgot password?
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Statistics:
Forum Members: 8,527
Total Threads: 22,745
Total Posts: 280,174
There are 3437 users
currently browsing forums.
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Sponsor:
Donate & Support Able Muse / Eratosphere
Forum LeftForum Right
Right Right
Right Bottom Left Right Bottom Right

Hosted by ApplauZ Online