[Janet Kenny]

Originally Posted by Carol Trese

Well, if I may pipe in on this one, I have recently posted 1) a piece that was pulled from Metrical, rightly so, because I said "this is not a poem yet, I am just looking for feedback" and then 2) I posted a poem on the non-met board that received a lot of feedback, on and off-board, and a lot of it pointed out what was lacking. I appreciate this direct feedback, and I hope I responded directly to every crit, either publically or by PM, to let people know I can take it and I encourage straight talk. I've been watching this board, and I have seen newbies who couldn't take it, and I have seen folks push through all the weird dynamics here, and become valuable contributors. I don't like to hear that "cruelty can be fun." It has taken me a long time to get brave enough to post my work here, and if I thought people found fun in cruelty, I would have stopped paying attention to this board a long time ago. Janet, I am surprised to hear you say that. Publically, I must say it makes me as a new contributor very uncomfortable.

Oh Carol,
There are some old identities here (not me!) who like getting their juices flowing with a bit of fisticuffs. We all know who they are and we're all very fond of them in spite of everything. I have seen frightened young poets given the rounds of the kitchen. I don't do it and I don't care for it. Some people who are not prepared for exposure do suffer shock and the good ones survive and grow. Those who leave have probably made the right decision. I'm not advocating it. I was joking when I said "cruelty can be fun". I had hoped that was obvious.I said I was leaving this discussion which is not the one that I intended but I didn't want you to feel bad.

[Carol Trese]

Well, Janet, your comments can't make any new member feel good. As much as you say this was just supposed to be a light-hearted discussion, it doesn't come across that way. So give some specifics. I have nothing but respect for the feedback I have received. If you mean for this to be an introspective interrogation, ask direct iquestions. "Abstract sort of discussions" never do seem to go smoothly in an online world. You've been around this site much longer than I and I'm sure you've seen them spin out of reason. I shouldn't even be engaging with this, but it hits close to home for me, having recently been participating on the non-met board and receiving a lot of good crits. -- Carol

[Janet Kenny]

My remarks had nothing to do with anything on Eratosphere. They were not personal. They were philosophical and had to do with personal discovery if you will. I really don't want to continue. I was wrong to start the thread.

Basically I wanted to discuss the responsibility inherent in critique. No more than that. I now realise that this forum is not a good place for such a discussion.

[Patrick Foley]

Originally Posted by Janet Kenny

My remarks had nothing to do with anything on Eratosphere. They were not personal. They were philosophical and had to do with personal discovery if you will. I really don't want to continue. I was wrong to start the thread.

Janet, as a very new member I'm grateful you did at least try to start a thread I would have found extremely helpful if it had gone the way I think you wanted.

In the very short time I've been here, I've already posted crits I have grave doubts about--on the one hand you hope it helps to point out something a writer may have been unable to see, but on the other hand how do you know that what you see matters at all!

Pat

[Janet Kenny]

Originally Posted by Patrick Foley

Janet, as a very new member I'm grateful you did at least try to start a thread I would have found extremely helpful if it had gone the way I think you wanted.

In the very short time I've been here, I've already posted crits I have grave doubts about--on the one hand you hope it helps to point out something a writer may have been unable to see, but on the other hand how do you know that what you see matters at all!

Pat

Thank you Pat. It's not that I think we should change our methods or become opaque, it's just that I think it useful to occasionally remind ourselves that we may be going where angels fear to tread. I think that if we do say anything at all it must be our genuine thoughts, remembering that our genuine thoughts may do unintended harm to the poem. If we keep that in mind we may achieve a higher level of critique. It's easy to say that the poet has the final say but no poet who was totally secure would post a poem on this forum. Insecurity is not always justified.
I have long believed that telling a poet that you enjoy a poem, if you genuinely did, is a valuable piece of information for that poet. The rest fans out from that central point.

[John Whitworth]

I'm sure you all remember Thumper the rabbit in Bambi. 'If you can't say nothing nice don't say nothing at all'. I am sure this is a good rule. I never post without saying something nice. Then I might add something else. But a poem I don't like at all I keep quiet about. There was that.... shush!
I may say I have an alter ego with another name who is very rude indeed and entirely destructive on UK political blogs. You should try it. Excoriating Gordon Brown is good for the soul. I can't think WHAT I'll do when he's gone.

[Janice D. Soderling]

Janet said

I think that if we do say anything at all it must be our genuine thoughts, remembering that our genuine thoughts may do unintended harm to the poem
(...)
I have long believed that telling a poet that you enjoy a poem, if you genuinely did, is a valuable piece of information for that poet..

The genuineness of one's thoughts is not worth a fig. Honesty in itself is not worth a fig. There are many genuine and honest thoughts floating around which are flighty, silly or quite detrimental: I think we should send the foreigners home. I think a poem should be about something pleasant. I think we should say something nice or not speak at all.

(B]Edited in:[/b] John. we crossposted, the above is not a snide remark triggered by your Thumper post, but it is my opinion so I will let it stand.)

Critque of a poem is valuable when it is couched in polite terms-- no ad hom--when it is not based on personal idoiosyncracies or beginner's handbooks (a poem should bring up one of the five senses, therefore this is not a poem), takes up specifics that can be agreed to by other members, (this poem is successful because the refrain changes the interpretation of each preceding stanza), or can be opposed by other members (this is not a sonnet because it has rhymed and unrhymed end lines of which there are only 13).

Ideally there the critique will be encouraging when caution is needed (i.e. tell a a new member but not a seasoned old-timer like Michael Cantor that the crit is meant in a positive way)--and this is more than a routine tag at the end "I hope this helps". As in cooking, the sensitive critter knows when to add a pinch of salt, a dollop of mustard or the juice of one lemon. Or a tablespoon of sugar. A diet of sugar is not good for anyone.

It is true that crit can go awry, I try to to make nice if I perceive I have offended. I try to put signposts throughout saying, "this is not about you, this is about your poem for which you requested comments to help you improve your craft". I try not to be dogmatic and always say that there is more than one way to write a poem. I try to be jocular sometimes and sometimes that backfires. I try to learn from my mistakes when I have inadvertantly offended, for instance, if I list shortcomings with 1,2,3 I take care to say that it is only for the sake of convenience or discussion because I once offended a member by doing this, I don't remember who, I was a new moderator then, but I had a PM exchange to try to make nice, and hopefully we are not on bad terms.

Let's face it. For all of us a poem has nearly child status, it is our brain child. Bad parents will stop speaking to the neighbor suggests who that their child ought not kick cats. The good parents will teach the child not to kick cats.

Janet, I encourage you to be a public counterbalance at Non-Met when you think perceive injustice. We don't like gushiness for its own sake, but a variety of opinion is an excellent way to help the poet, newbie or oldtimer, remember that workshop criti consists of the diverse voices of mortals and are not proclamations from Olympia.

Patrick said

I've already posted crits I have grave doubts about

Patrick, you will recall that I PMed you to welcome you and let you know that that your first crit was an exceptionally useful and well-formulated comment. A rule of thumb is that if you have grave doubts, you should think again. But if you deliver a crit that gravely offends i.e. ad hom, we will take it down. In my judgement, you are doing splendidly.

[Patrick Foley]

Originally Posted by Janice D. Soderling

Janet said

The genuineness of one's thoughts is not worth a fig. Honesty in itself is not worth a fig. There are many genuine and honest thoughts floating around which are flighty, silly or quite detrimental: I think we should send the foreigners home. I think a poem should be about something pleasant. I think we should say something nice or not speak at all.

Janice, I believe Janet was suggesting there is a "moral dimension" to what we do here. Because your words may be more than just useful or useless, but actually harmful or helpful, they ought to be words you are prepared to stand by. That may be obvious; it may also bear repeating.

*

I worry about the same measuring stick being held up to poems with very different goals. (Holy mixed metaphor, Batman!)

I wonder if Yeats would be told he was overwriting and some of his logic was faulty. I wonder if Clark Coolidge would be told there was a nice phrase here & there but overall his poems just don't make enough sense! Really, I can just picture it!

And it's not even a question of whether you, the critic, are right, exactly, but whether there is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your poetics...

Pat

[Janice D. Soderling]

there is a "moral dimension" to what we do here. Because your words may be more than just useful or useless, but actually harmful or helpful, they ought to be words you are prepared to stand by. That may be obvious; it may also bear repeating.

Patrick, I hope that my concern with the "moral dimension" permeates my responses both in this thread and in my critique-giving. I reiterate that it behooves us to remember that we have all been novices, started with nothing but the desire to write. The next step is the acquisition of skills.

[Clive]

I think you can worry too much about these things. There seems to be an impression that the critter/critted relationship is totally passive, that the critted sits there and takes it. Well, speaking for myself, I take and leave crits as I see fit. If I think someone's just being mean for sport well, I would probably tend to disregard what that person is saying (it doesn't happen here, but on another poetry forum I frequent where some people seem to delight in being vicious). If I think the person hasn't "got" my poem, well, then that's probably a fault in the way I've expressed myself. If I think a person doesn't really know what they're talking about (again, it hasn't happened here but on that Other Forum), I take what I can from their crit but tend to give it less weight than someone who DOES seem to know what they're talking about.

When I crit these days, I try and be positive about at least one thing to encourage the person, but I don't believe in the "shit sandwich" approach (nice, nasty, nice) to criticism.

Anyway, thems me thoughts.