[John Whitworth]

Amis is not saying anything. It is Jake who is saying these things. At the end of the novel Jake goes off into a diatribe against all women. Many people seem to suppose this is Amis's considered view. But if it were, why would he not say it in an article with his name at the end of it? So with workshop. Jake is not a very nice man. Amis was considerably nicer.

[Janet Kenny]

Originally Posted by Laura Heidy-Halberstein

I thought we went thru this already and decided that Poetry Magazine was essentially the only "important" poetry journal which disallowed workshopping and that even they were pretty easy to get around.

Besides which, Alex has "fixed" Eratosphere so that workshopped poems do not show up on a Google search thereby negating your whole argument.

http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showth...oetry+Magazine

http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showth...oetry+Magazine

http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/showth...oetry+Magazine

I'm unsure where you get your last statement from, Janet, but every time a statement like this is made my email becomes full of letters from past members who disagree with you but are too burnt out to say so.

Lo,
It's a psychological pressure. It only needs one leading magazine to inhibit posters.

You do love an argument don't you?

Ah the silent dissidents.

[David Landrum]

Originally Posted by John Whitworth

Amis is not saying anything. It is Jake who is saying these things.

I see that line quoted a lot, John, and it is usually quoted as if Amis did say it himself. And I seem to see it a lot. Writers for The New Criterion have used it at least twice in the last few months and I see it crop up elsewhere. So though one of Amis' characters uttered it, it has taken on a life of its own and Amis' imprimatur has been applied to it, since his celebrity-writer status gives it more authority.

[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

Originally Posted by Janet Kenny

You do love an argument don't you?

.

Not necessarily. It takes two to make an argument. I simply respond to a thread with what I think - it's not an argument until someone challenges my response or makes some outrageous statement back at me (or someone else) without being able to offer something concrete that makes the statement believable.

Even then, it's not so much arguing that I do. I just point out the inconsistancies and spend a few minutes backing my own statements up with facts.

Not very poetic, perhaps, but not utter BS, either.

[Rory Waterman]

Amis is not saying anything. It is Jake who is saying these things.

Well, yes, as I've noted. Amis has been a victim of this sort of misattribution on a number of occasions.

What he would have thought of workshops I don't know. But I do suspect it might have been not much.

[Susan McLean]

A workshop is a tool. There are good ones and bad ones, and they can be used well or poorly. I would guess that relatively few poets work in total isolation, speaking only to their own echo. Some may have one or two close friends whom they show work to, and if those friends are good poets with congenial outlooks, that may be an ideal situation. For those of us working in isolation from others of our kind, an online workshop can be very helpful. I have learned a lot, not only from crits, but from discussions of technique and of other poets. At times my job keeps me too busy to write or to crit, and at other times I can do both. But I will often come here to read the work of others, even if only for a few minutes.

I think workshops can be destructive if they impose a particular style or content on writers. Writers need to develop their own sense of what is worth saving and what must go. But we all have blind spots, and not even to want to hear how others react to one's work seems solipsistic.

Susan

[Mark Allinson]

Well, it must be said: despite all the fussing and fighting I do here from time to time, this board has been absolutely central to my writing.

And, as an otherwise "speaker to my own echo", I am very grateful for its existence.

[John Whitworth]

There are worse words than 'workshop'. One beloved of our absurd government is 'focus group', though I know that is, strictly speaking, a phrase. Does Obama use focus groups? Do you? And then there's the specialised meaning of 'debate', which means, 'We'll let you talk about this for weeks and then we'll do what we were going to in the first place.'
And, talking about focus, what about 'stay focussed', which means, don't let any considerations about honour or plain dealing or telling the truth get in the way of doing something rather nasty. Workshop is a nice thing. You listen. You don't just lay down the law.

Amis would undoubtedly have hated to hear it used as a verb.