[Brian Allgar]

Bob, it's my understanding that the whole attempt to replace "Christmas" by "Holiday", or some other anodyne word, occurs at an official rather than an individual level. For example:

One of the most prominent Christmas tree controversies came in 2005, when the city of Boston labeled their official decorated tree as a holiday tree, and the subsequent response from the Nova Scotian tree farmer who donated the tree was that he would rather have put the tree in a wood chipper than have it named a "holiday" tree.

In 2007, a controversy arose when a public school in Ottawa, Ontario planned to have the children in its primary choir sing a version of the song "Silver Bells" with the word "Christmas" replaced by "festive".

... A controversy regarding these issues arose in 2002, when the New York City public school system banned the display of Nativity scenes ...

In the United Kingdom there have been some controversies, one of the most famous being the temporary promotion of the phrase Winterval for a whole season of events (including Christmas festivities) by Birmingham City Council in the late 1990s. This remains a controversial example of "Christmas controversy", with critics attacking the use of the word "Winterval" as being political correctness gone mad.

[Roger Slater]

Originally Posted by Brian Allgar

Bob, it's my understanding that the whole attempt to replace "Christmas" by "Holiday", or some other anodyne word, occurs at an official rather than an individual level. For example:

One of the most prominent Christmas tree controversies came in 2005, when the city of Boston labeled their official decorated tree as a holiday tree, and the subsequent response from the Nova Scotian tree farmer who donated the tree was that he would rather have put the tree in a wood chipper than have it named a "holiday" tree.

In 2007, a controversy arose when a public school in Ottawa, Ontario planned to have the children in its primary choir sing a version of the song "Silver Bells" with the word "Christmas" replaced by "festive".

... A controversy regarding these issues arose in 2002, when the New York City public school system banned the display of Nativity scenes ...

In the United Kingdom there have been some controversies, one of the most famous being the temporary promotion of the phrase Winterval for a whole season of events (including Christmas festivities) by Birmingham City Council in the late 1990s. This remains a controversial example of "Christmas controversy", with critics attacking the use of the word "Winterval" as being political correctness gone mad.

Mostly it happens on an individual and social level, fed by the press (and much exaggerated by the press, since I don't really think it's something that troubles the vast majority of people in the slightest). When it happens at the governmental level, there are Constitutional considerations, since in theory we separate church and state, so there's always an issue when it comes to having a government building display a nativity scene, for example, just as there would be if public schools adorned their walls with crucifixes or required prayer.

The situation you refer to in Boston, though, reinforces my point. It was the "Christmas" people getting angry that the more inclusive word "holiday" was used, not the "holiday" people trying to delete the word "Christmas." If the essence of PC-ness is trying to control people's language based on your own preferences and sensitivities, then the PC police here were not the happy holiday people but the Merry Christmas people. No one would say this, however, because the pejorative "PC" is somehow reserved for liberals. When conservatives try to force their views into the mainstream it is never a cause for concern, it seems.

But even if I conceded the "happy holidays" issue, I wonder why this would be considered such a tragically horrible thing, and I question the hyperbole involved in calling it a war on Christmas rather than a war on anyone who may not celebrate Christmas but nonetheless enjoys the festive holiday spirit that ushers in the winter months.

Much more concerning in the US is the invocation of "political correctness" to rebut and silence those who do not think it's a good idea to seal our borders to non-Christians, to allow gender discrimination, to suspend constitutional rights for Muslims, to discriminate against gay people, to make fun of people with disabilities, etc. Believe me when I tell you that the Republicans candidates who continually assure us that the problem with America is too much political correctness are not focusing on the Merry Christmas issue.

[Brian Allgar]

Bob, I may differ with you on some of the points you raise, but I whole-heartedly concur with your last paragraph.

[Jayne Osborn]

Here are some other examples of Political Correctness Gone Mad.

There's the ludicrous re-naming of one of our favourite puddings as ''Spotted Richard'' - many people won't say Spotted Dick any more because dick is slang for a penis. Never mind that Dick is a perfectly acceptable diminutive for the name Richard, but Dick originally just meant ''pudding'', so it was a spotted pudding because of the dried fruit in it.

People have been censured for using the word ''niggardly'' because it sounds like the ''N'' word, though it simply means... well, mean/stingy. That's more a case of gross ignorance than political incorrectness. (But strangely, no one seems to object to the word 'snigger', do they?)

The use of ''Chair'' drives me nuts. I am Chairman of my town's U3A (University of the Third Age). The term Chairman is not gender specific. I don't like being called the Chair, much less Chairwoman - and as for Chairperson... puh-lease!!!

You can't say ''blackboard'' any more; it has to be called a chalk board - though you can have a whiteboard without any problems.

Basically, PC Gone Mad has made many people avoid using phrases which contain ''man'' or ''black'', so instead of asking for a black coffee I'm supposed to ask for a coffee without milk, lest I offend anyone. A ''manhole'' in the road is now a utility hole.

These are the kind of things I meant, Roger, but there are loads more examples. Being offended (especially on someone else's behalf) has become some people's raison d'étre - no offence to the French intended!

Jayne

[Roger Slater]

Jayne, I agree with you that people are sometimes offended by silly things. But that's not the sort of political correctness that is a political issue in the presidential campaign. No one is really arguing over whether the word "niggardly" is okay. These sorts of examples are pulled out to denigrate (sorry) the idea of political correctness in order to suggest that it's also merely political correctness to want to fight discrimination or champion diversity in culture, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. When "political correctness" is used as a pejorative term to refer to people who oppose shutting down mosques, it's usually a substitute for actual argument. People who cannot defend their cruel or hateful positions often just say, "I hate political correctness," a great applause line among Republicans but not a real argument. It's a term that, at least in the US, has become an integral part of the vocabulary of demagogues. And it's a rhetorical device to mask hate speech. Perhaps it's not like that where you live, but that's what it's like in the US. Merely consider the fact that several of the leading Republican candidates, including Donald Trump most conspicuously, constantly deride "political correctness," but none of the Democrats do.

Some of the examples you gave are unfamiliar to me, by the way. I've never heard anyone here object to blackboard if the board is black. As far as Spotted Dick is concerned (tee hee!), Dick Cheney never called himself Richard and I don't recall any liberals objecting to the connotation. I don't think "Chair" is a question of PC, though. At any rate, this is not the political correctness that the Republicans are running on. It's a much uglier thing in the campaign.

Donald Trump often says things like this, which is a quote: "I think the big problem this country has is being politically correct. I’ve been challenged by so many people and I don’t, frankly, have time for total political correctness. And to be honest with you, this country doesn’t have time, either."

If political correctness were merely the silly insistence on not using words like "blackboard" or "spotted dick," I doubt that Trump would stand up and say that it is "the big problem this country has." And I doubt that he would have so many followers cheering him on, as if all their anger and attempts to "take back the country" were just an effort to let people use the word "niggardly" in its traditional sense.

[Jayne Osborn]

No, as you can see, I wasn't referring to the type of political correctness you are talking about, Bob. The whole presidential campaign thing is another matter altogether, and I'm in agreement with you over the worst elements of it.

But, believe me, this "Chair'' nonsense is a PC matter over here. ''Chairman'' is seen, by some, to be discriminatory towards women, when it is not. The Chambers Dictionary says: chairman - a person (male or female) who takes the chair or presides at an assembly or meeting. There's nothing either derogatory or discriminatory in the word as far as I'm concerned, yet it constantly leads to heated arguments among women (and men) who think there is.

Jayne

[Julie Steiner]

Personally, I prefer gender-neutral terms because they are shorter and more efficient...but I really don't care whether people call me "Chair" or "Chairman" or "Chairwoman," so long as I'm still the boss.

Gotta say, though, Jayne, I am deeply suspicious of the idea that referring to either blackboards or black coffee is EVER considered racist by ANYONE. Both sound like deliberately ridiculous and purely hypothetical examples of "Political Correctness--where will it end?"

At most, these might--MIGHT--be things that a few overanxious white people, whose primary goal in life is to Avoid Looking Bad, worry about, but I highly doubt that it is a real concern to actual ethnic minorities, who tend to have far, far more important things to get agitated about. ("Choose your battles" and all that.)

I mainly hear the pejorative "PC" rolled out by the sorts of privileged people who used to enjoy telling jokes that pissed on the underprivileged. Now they resent having to watch their language even when among other privileged people, lest someone call their contemptuous comments racist or homophobic or snobbish or whatever.

(Of course, none of them are ACTUALLY racists or homophobes or snobs--they're just convinced of their inherent superiority, which happens to be aligned with their race and sexual orientation and class PURELY BY ACCIDENT.)

Precisely because they are privileged, the horror of being "mistakenly" thought a racist or homophobe or snob is among the worst things that ever happens to them. And therefore such social disapprobation--a.k.a. Political Correctness--is one of the Major Ills of Modern Society, about which Something Must Be Done.

Actual racism and homophobia and poverty can take a back burner until these folks' God-given* right to piss on the underprivileged is restored.



* God having seen fit to make them privileged in the first place. Cf. verse 3 of Mrs. Cecil Alexander's lovely hymn, "All Things Bright and Beautiful":

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them high and lowly,
And ordered their estate.

We nasty godless liberals are forever trying to upend the social order that God Himself ordained. We're all bound for hell, I'm sure, for not realizing that "Love thy neighbor" is only supposed to refer to the guy in the next castle. But I digress.

[Erik Olson]

My First Impressions
Of San Joaquin’s sea-level Valley were:
Chemicals ripen fields of super citrus,
No sight of people, passed-by squat towns blur;
Summer's year-round, sun fevered like a virus.
Here groves the orange-rancher’s daughters crop
Repeat. Amid this desert teeming grain,
And sundry fruit fill silos for the shop;
Processing plants stuff beef in cellophane.

m

[John Whitworth]

I think, Julie and Roger, that you must allow Jayne to say what is so over here. After all, she knows and you don't. She would not pronounce on what happens in the USA.

I assure you, liberals over here agonize like anything over the word black.

[Mary McLean]

Originally Posted by John Whitworth

I think, Julie and Roger, that you must allow Jayne to say what is so over here. After all, she knows and you don't. She would not pronounce on what happens in the USA.

I assure you, liberals over here agonize like anything over the word black.

Actually I think most liberals over here are a bit too busy agonising over what is happening to the NHS to give the matter much thought.