[Andrew Frisardi]

That’s the impression I have, Charlie, and which I’ve been trying to express: that people who are defending Trump are willing to put with the negative stuff since they (and you) think the positives might outweigh it.

As you say, The reason why Trump voters overlook, forgive, forget about all of those things you listed is this: Trump made promises to them and made them believe he would make good on his promises. It's that simple.

I still haven’t heard, though, why those promises outweigh the imminent and actual damaging effects. Why Trump has not already gone beyond the pale by being Putin’s friend, having a Cabinet of billionaires including several Goldman Sachs people (and thus not really being “anti-establishment,” as he was touted to be), denying climate change and suppressing scientific data about it, and so on.

There are two possibilities: (1) either Trump supporters/defenders feel that the negatives are not really as dangerous and damaging as many feel they are, and therefore that the good of Trump at least potentially outweighs the bad; or that (2) Trump supporters/defenders are willing to deny or turn a blind eye to things that in their heart of hearts they know are dangerous and irredeemably negative in order to let Trump “make good on his promises.”

In other words: those negatives I listed are dealt with either by disagreeing that they are really that negative, or by denying their existence.

[Charlie Southerland]

Andrew, time will tell regarding Trumps business entanglements. Personally, I think there are enough safeguards built in to the system to keep him honest. There is no love lost between him and the Republican majority in both houses, not to mention, the Supremes.

I don't know anyone out here in the hustings who believes Trump and Putin are buddies. I do think he is probably very friendly with the Russian Oligarchs who pull Putin's strings. I have no info either way on that. On the other hand, Russia's and our mutual interest is to destroy ISIS, ISIL, Al Quaida, and the like. Would I ever trust the Russian Bear? Nope, the book of Jeremiah warns against this in the 56th or so chapter. It's prophecy, so I don't expect anyone to pay attention to me on that. Daniel warns of it too. Again. Trump ain't stupid or naive. Democrats put academics in positions of power in their administrations who have little real world experience. Putting wealthy men and women in charge makes more sense. They have life experience and the education to succeed. Do I worry that they will enrich themselves or their buddies? Not any more than I worried Bill and Hillary took 400 million dollars for speaking fees while saying in private what they dare not say in public. Our government has been corrupt so long that I find it remarkable that anyone would bemoan Trump or his cabinet of wealth which they purportedly made by working for it. Are you against capitalism and wealth honestly earned? A lot of people are.


Andrew M. gave a list out by Dan Rather, who ran with the false story of Bush some years ago. How can anyone trust what Rather has to say?

You set the parameters of your premise and tailored it in a way that is a trap to answer truthfully no matter which way one answers. That's OK, that's not a new thing you're doing. Most of the time, I like to answer questions yes or no. Sometimes they're a little more complicated than that.
That's OK too. You already know what you think, don't you? Politics is truly war. Sometimes a real shooting war happens out of it. Will trying to delegitimize Trump prevent or start a war. I don't know. But I know if this kind of dreck continues, it could. ( Not your dreck) Democrats will dig in, Republicans will be pussies, and Trump will take the lead and do what he thinks. That's what we are left with.

[Andrew Frisardi]

You set the parameters of your premise and tailored it in a way that is a trap . . .

Logic isn't a trap, Charlie, unless facts are a trap (something the Trump administrations has more or less stated directly). What I said at the end of that post is simple logic. If it isn't, tell me an alternative possible explanation for how Trump supporters/defenders can live with the negatives.

[Charlie Southerland]

For me, Andrew, I look for things in a person to vote for. I voted for Mike Pence because he's a Christian Conservative and he's been a member of the House of Representatives and a current sitting Governor of a Midwest state. He is qualified and lives what he believes. That was enough for me. He is a humble man. He is the things that Trump isn't. However, Trump was smart enough to choose him, which shows good judgement and a little wisdom.

Many people that I know voted for Trump because there was just no way they wanted Hillary in the White House ( with Bubba running loose) for even a second. It was like watching people vomit in their own mouths. They voted for a negative to avoid a worse negative. They detested her. That's a pretty strong reason to overlook Trump's problems. I also know people who voted for her for exactly the same reason.

I was amazed at the idea that either of these two people would be in the White House. I think we have much better people in this country than them. But that's just me. Logic? What logic?

[Andrew Frisardi]

Thanks for the discussion, Charlie. It did me good. I’m less bewildered about what I was bewildered about back at post #37.

[Andrew Mandelbaum]

Ok. Take over the thread with another round of this.

The total dismissal of everything in the Rather list based on the way he failed to nail the clearly false representation of Bush by his Party should be enough to show you that this is a waste of time.

Dan Rather blew a tough story on Bush. He knows it. The general gist of the story remain true. On Rather and Bush:

https://theintercept.com/2015/10/27/...to-do-with-it/


No Charlie, you have "gotten with the misogyny". Just the fact that Mike Pence is backing a up a candidate caught in recorded tape celebrating fame as a lever for sexual assault, I mean locker room talk, should be a clue. Pence's approach to woman's rights is terrible.

And your faith in this system to keep Trump in check when it can't even get him to open his records is a religious stance against all odds and evidence to the contrary. You get to wager you own possessions on such stupidity if you like. But this a wager of the dregs of democracy and few life supports left in the social safety net. At that point your religion doesn't remain some thing personal to be respected but a reckless intruder into the common good. These aren't pot shots, Julie. This inability to think is threatening our world.

This is like a math class where everytime we get at the books, Tommy objects and in "fairness" the class stops and once again lets Tommy explain why 2+2 =5.

The atomic scientists moved the doomsday clock closer to midnight for the first time in decades. They based the call not just on nuclear buttons under the fingers of morons but on the cabinet of Tommy clones still questioning the threat to the climate/ecology.

[Gregory Palmerino]

Two good summations of Trumpism by David Brooks at the NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/o...ype=collection

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/17/o...column%2FDavid Brooks&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&modu le=Collection&region=Marginalia&src=me&version=col umn&pgtype=article

[Andrew Mandelbaum]

On translating Trump:

http://usuncut.com/news/rubbish-tran...y-bad-english/

[Andrew Frisardi]

Good one, Andrew. I just watched his dialogue with Theresa May. Their talk about a "new era" calls to mind 1930s Europe:

[Charlie Southerland]

Is it not also true that most of 1930's Arabia were Nazi sympathizers at the least and combatants against the allies during WWII? And that the children and grandchildren of the Arab Semitic tribes are leading the caliphate against the Israelis, not to mention the West? Why would any sane person take their children in only to have them blow up Americans or Brits when they are old enough to do so? I'm sure there would be an outcry if we wished to convert these kids to Christianity. I'm just as sure they'd be raised with their religion of peace inside the mosques of America and England. It's the natural thing for snowflakes to see to it. Jihadis in training. Great.