[Robert E. Jordan]

Albert,

I always tell people I write poetry. It gives you an ace in the hole, they feel I might be writing about them.


Bobby

[Henry Quince]

Janet, your response seems to patronise those of us who find some pleasure in reading (or trying to write) haiku. Apparently you know better.

If a haiku type of sensibility or juxtaposition of images produces some pleasing poems in English, why attack the idea on theoretical grounds? I don’t think you did voice those objections to Lee Gurga last year, or at least not publicly in this thread where you posted two haiku of your own. If you’re so convinced we are all wrong, surely you owe it to him to put him right too?

Re the cinquain, as Patricia has mentioned a couple of times, Crapsey conceived it as a metrical form (1,2,3,4,1 beats) and it subsequently (in Turco’s words) evolved into a syllabic form, somewhat analogous to the Japanese tanka. I don’t know if that “evolving” was by Crapsey’s choice, but I suspect not. The examples of her work over on the other thread include some which, because of metrical variation, don’t fit the 2,4,6,8,2 syllabic pattern but do maintain the 1,2,3,4,1 beat pattern. Here are a couple of them.


The Guarded Wound

If it
Were lighter touch
Than petal of flower resting
On grass, oh still too heavy it were,
Too heavy!


Fate Defied

As it
Were tissue of silver
I'll wear, O fate, thy grey,
And go mistily radiant, clad
Like the moon.


The first has 2,4,8,9,3 syllables, the second 2,6,6,9,3, but obviously the metrical 1,2,3,4,1 pattern is maintained in both. So it seems clear Crapsey was treating this as a metrical, not a syllabic form when she wrote those pieces.

These examples do illustrate what I would say is the real weakness of the form — the L1-2 break can easily seem forced and unnatural after such a short line. Someone has already commented on the line-break difficulties, but this L1-2 seems to be the major problem. Both the above poems would read better to me with L1 and L2 run together.

Henry



[This message has been edited by Henry Quince (edited April 18, 2005).]

[Janet Kenny]

Henry,
I don't think it's fair to describe a different point of view as "patronising". That would end all serious discussion about anything.
I had to explain my point of view. Indeed I was asked to enlarge upon it.
It is a sincere point of view. Others think differently. That's fine.

Actually I did raise exactly the same points to Mr Gurga. There were several threads. I don't know which you have saved but it is apparently not one of those in which I clearly voiced my present opinion. I didn't persist because it was his discipline and I was merely an interested participant. I sincerely respect his dedication and intimate knowledge of Japanese Haiku.

Janet


[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited April 18, 2005).]

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

Albert,

I don't work in a cube farm, but I suspect that the 19th century "I wrote poetry last night" is the same as the housemate I had in college who proclaimed "I'm a poet," then became rather aghast when I asked to read his latest poem and he hadn't written any for two or three years--whereas I'd written one only last week and wasn't going around proclaiming myself a poet. To him, being a poet was a good excuse to wear black and hang out in the cool coffee house. That is to say, a matter of fashion.

That poetry isn't fashionable in the land of cubicles? So what? Fashions change, but I really don't see much difference between American Idol and a Victorian music hall stage. Fact is, the folk in the next cube were going home to a night of minstrels singing popular songs and standards, which do have lyrics.

Saying that the world of literature--by which you mean the printed word--is subordinate to the rest of the arts is to beg the question: In Jane Austen's day, were there no theatres? Concerts? Dances? Did everyone sit around and read and write poetry all day?

Was Abe Lincoln shot while attending one of Emily Dickinson's public and highly promoted poetry readings... Uh, wait, she was this crazy spinster who only published a handful of her poems during her life, and shut the rest up in a bureau drawer, right? And Lincoln was shot at the theatre by a popular handsome actor?

I don't buy that you have to pierce the visual--or auditory--medium to get to the written, not when Barnes and Noble has created bookstores that feel like palaces or at least luxury hotels. There's obviously a whole lot of people who still like books and still read them, and I don't think the number is getting fewer.

[Henry Quince]

Janet, you said this:

I have come to doubt that it is much use for non--Japanese poets unless they so lack an ability to identify with experience they need a zen whack on the head--in which case I wonder why they want to write in the first place.

What’s that if not patronising?

Henry

[Janet Kenny]

Henry
_______________
Janet, you said this:
I have come to doubt that it is much use for non--Japanese poets unless they so lack an ability to identify with experience they need a zen whack on the head--in which case I wonder why they want to write in the first place.
What’s that if not patronising?

Henry
_____________
How about silly?

(Why didn't the quote copy?)
Janet
PPS: I wanted to say here what I said to Henry in a private communication.
I feel something like veneration for Japanese art forms and their respect for natural qualities of materials.


[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited April 18, 2005).]

[Patricia A. Marsh]

Janet said:

PPS: I wanted to say here what I said to Henry in a private communication.
I feel something like veneration for Japanese art forms and their respect for natural qualities of materials.

"...feel something like veneration for Japanese arts forms and their respect for <u>natural</u> qualities of materials."? That is heavy, Janet! But . . .

I wonder if you feel the same way about all Japanese art forms. How, for instance, would you venerate the Art of Bonzai, considering that it doesn't show too much "respect" for the "natural qualities" of a tree?

There's nothing "natural" about any "art", Janet, Japanese or otherwise. And when it comes to that "truth in materials"? [ **cough** ].

Edited to note that "truth in materials" is an incorrectly remembered and, therefore, a misquote of something Janet said. Quote should have been "truth <u>to</u> materials". Sorry, Janet! <u>My</u> bad.





[This message has been edited by Patricia A. Marsh (edited April 19, 2005).]

[Janet Kenny]

Patricia,
I do draw the line at bonsai and ikebana--although both can be very beautiful at their best. Not what I meant.

I like their rock gardens and the architecture in which they use no nails and let the joinery show as a part of the beauty. I also love their music and physical movement. I think things have become very debased--especially modern Japanese pottery, but their finest pots are still superb. They have, at their best a great respect for the inherent textures and qualities of things. They exploit those natural qualities to achieve their goals.
Janet

[Patricia A. Marsh]

Originally posted by Janet Kenny:

Patricia,
I do draw the line at bonsai and ikebana--although both can be very beautiful at their best. Not what I meant.

I like their rock gardens and the architecture in which they use no nails and let the joinery show as a part of the beauty. I also love their music and physical movement. I think things have become very debased--especially modern Japanese pottery, but their finest pots are still superb. They have, at their best a great respect for the inherent textures and qualities of things. They exploit those natural qualities to achieve their goals.
Janet

But . . . how is any of that relevant to the Art of Haiku? Other than the season-words, what are the "natural qualities" of haiku?

No need to reply, Janet. If I'm not mistaken, the subject of this thread--started by Brother Joyous Hydrogen Bomb of Temperance--is "Three Minute Poetry: The Cinquain". Haven't you noticed that <u>he</u> is sorta layin' low? Chicken[** cough ** ]?!



[This message has been edited by Patricia A. Marsh (edited April 19, 2005).]

[Janet Kenny]

Patricia:
But . . . how is any of that relevant to the Art of Haiku? Other than the season-words, what are the "natural qualities" of haiku?

Language. The natural grain of language
Back to the pool of astral elation.
Janet


Over and out. Sorry Michael.

[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited April 19, 2005).]