Eratosphere Forums - Metrical Poetry, Free Verse, Fiction, Art, Critique, Discussions Able Muse - a review of poetry, prose and art

Forum Left Top

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #71  
Unread 11-02-2015, 07:49 AM
James Brancheau James Brancheau is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Taipei
Posts: 2,752
Default

Just when I thought I was out... I hear you, Max. "quite possibly" more palatable? I can't do better than that. But you're right, of course. At this point, it's probably more personal opinion. I really do hope I'm wrong. And, yes, John, getting to the truth in these matters, I'm guessing, is often a difficult thing. But, no, I don't get into accusing people of serious crimes (unless I suspect someone is going after Modernism). Speaking of which, hoping the thread gets back on topic...
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Unread 11-02-2015, 09:14 AM
Michael F's Avatar
Michael F Michael F is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: a foothill of the Catskills
Posts: 968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie Steiner View Post
the gimmick of having been women in a man's literary world
Forgive me for interrupting with applause, but that's well said.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Unread 11-02-2015, 09:31 AM
Tony Barnstone's Avatar
Tony Barnstone Tony Barnstone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 789
Default

Hi Julie,

I'm not sure I can entirely buy your point: Does gender bias really inoculate female writers against political criticism? Take the cases of Gabriella Mistral and Charlotte Perkins Gilman, both of them groundbreaking feminists of their time and important writers.

Mistral was so racist against African-descended Latin Americans that she thought it best if they be eliminated from society. However, she thought that they would die out naturally because she found them so unattractive she assumed no one would wish to mate with them.

Gilman was a white supremacist and a proponent of eugenics who thought that African Americans were less evolved than Caucasians (as Stephen Jay Gould has shown in The Mismeasure of Man, there was a strong thread of racist 19th century science that tried to adapt Darwinism to race so as to support first slavery and later segregation).

Neither one has escaped pretty scathing criticism in the critical community over the past several decades.

Perhaps I'm arguing by example and these are exceptions that prove the rule. Perhaps also these writers came in for criticism because each of them were prominent feminists and so their racist ideas go against their message of social justice. I'm certainly not arguing that gender bias doesn't exist widely, merely that I'm not sure that it silences criticism of racism and other ethical failures. I would tend to argue the opposite: that critics with gender bias would be more inclined to level critiques that undermine the moral authority of figures such as Gilman and Mistral, but what do I know? People are complicated and motivations are hidden.

All Best,

Tony
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Unread 11-02-2015, 04:34 PM
Julie Steiner Julie Steiner is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 8,707
Default

Bill C., I'm no expert, and would welcome being corrected if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that H.D.'s intended audience was always a small group of avant-garde poets, rather than The General Public. I am unaware that she made any political statements for wider consumption. In her epic Trilogy (which I have not read), she reportedly draws on her experience of having lived through the London Blitz, but I don't think she ever publicly commented on other aspects of World War II. But again, I don't really know.

Tony, thanks for the examples of Mistral and Gilman. Such racist views didn't occur to me in the context of this conversation for two reasons. First, I was focused on expressed views of fascism and anti-Semitism by female poets in the U.S. who were contemporaries of Pound. Gilman wasn't noted for her poetry [Edited to say: Wrong, she's got a bio at the Poetry Foundation site, so this was just ignorance on my part], and died in 1935; Mistral wasn't a U.S. citizen. And second, I hadn't heard of Gilman's white supremacism before you mentioned it. (I was aware of Mistral's, but hers has always struck me as more of a cultural appropriation and assimilation thing than an imprisonment and extermination project like the one that Pound seems to have had in mind. More on that later.)

In general, I've long been aware that the feminist movement has occasionally drifted into racism, because so much of feminism is concerned with liberating the women of a particular social class from the trap of "women's work" in the domestic sphere--often at the expense of women in lower social classes.

Household drudgery is far less labor-intensive now than it once was, but until recently there were few labor-saving devices. The safe handling of food used to consume much time and effort. There were no freezers. Even iceboxes were iffy; once the ice melted past a certain point, food in some areas of the box entered unsafe temperature zones. Since importing crops from the Southern Hemisphere in a timely manner was not feasible, seasonal availability was a big thing. Without monumental food preservation undertakings like tomato and peach canning, one's family might not have fruit or vegetables in any form all winter, and might thus suffer scurvy-related problems. Today we think nothing of throwing away a mass-produced sock with a hole in it; back then, it was typical for someone to hand-knit such items, and when they got too damaged to be darned, to ravel their yarn to be knitted into something else. Et cetera. Nowadays, men are more inclined to help out at home, in part because it's become socially acceptable for men to admit to doing so, and in part because there is so much less of it to do. It's one thing to volunteer to take over the family's laundry, when doing the laundry means pushing a button on a washing machine; it's quite another when washing machines haven't been invented yet.

One might argue that stereotypical "women's work" forms a large percentage of the foundation of Maslow's pyramid. Without being able to take for granted that basic, physiological security about one's food and shelter, no intellectual life is possible for anyone.

If one liberates certain people from time-consuming domestic tasks (so that these folks might have time to achieve their full intellectual and creative potential), one must inevitably foist the lion's share of such chores upon some less fortunate human being.

One way to justify this division of labor is to deem those on the short end of the stick somehow inferior and undeserving of better, anyway. This is one way (among many, some fairer than others) in which men have traditionally justified foisting household drudgery upon women. This is also how some women have justified foisting it upon poorly-paid, less-educated household servants, often of ethnic groups different from their own. You don't have to feel guilty about depriving someone else of the opportunity to pursue intellectual endeavors, if you believe that that person's fundamental capacity for intellectual endeavors is inherently less than your own...or if you believe you are fairly and adequately compensating them for their labor in other ways.

See Thomas Jefferson's (admittedly, very conflicted) justification of slavery.

Overall, Mistral's unsavory views on race seem far more nuanced than Gilman's. First of all, Mistral's views seemed to have changed over time, with her most extreme statements being made when she was younger...when she, like more stereotypical white supremacists, believed that the future of Western civilization depended on the white race retaining its racial purity. She later shifted to a somewhat more palatable (although I still find it repugnant) belief that the future of Western civilization in Latin America depended on the assimilation and appropriation of other races, so that they might disappear into a population and culture that remained primarily European-dominated. She thought that the state had an interest in promoting the right sort of miscegenation; for example, Mistral supported a governmental program that encouraged people to emigrate from Germany and Yugoslavia and settle in the indigenous-dominated areas of Chile, ideally taking indigenous spouses (to improve the stock through interbreeding, as it were).

Although white herself (of Basque descent on both sides), she frequently presented herself as "mestiza," and she referred to the Latin American population as "nuestra raza"--"our race"--so often than many people assume that she was literally of a mixed-race background. She did champion the rights of indigenous peoples, and even those of African descent, particularly with regard to educational opportunities...but this boon of education had the stated or implied goal of "civilizing" the descendants of non-Europeans by instilling superior European culture into them. Hmmm.

In short, Mistral's racial views were a lot more complicated than Pound's straightforward anti-Semitism, although I still find them unsettling. By the way, my husband and I are of different races, and our children are obviously mixed, but we don't feel we're participating in a eugenics program to improve society's DNA composition. Blecch. [Edited to say: We also don't feel we're contributing to racial pollution. We're just people who happen to love each other.]

But yes, Tony, I stand corrected on my previous suggestion that feminist heroes might be given a pass on these sorts of statements, while men like Pound are held more accountable by later generations. I think it was the case when I was a student a quarter-century ago, but it is no longer. And if more people have heard of the Pound controversy than the Gilman controversy, it's probably because more people have heard of Pound than have heard of Gilman. [Edited to say: And Pound's situation was pretty newsworthy at the time, while Gilman's views were not all that unusual back then.]

Last edited by Julie Steiner; 11-02-2015 at 07:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Unread 11-02-2015, 09:34 PM
Tony Barnstone's Avatar
Tony Barnstone Tony Barnstone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 789
Default

Julie, It's a lot to think about!

Mistral on race is complicated because she's into mestizaje for indios and Hispanics but not for African descendants. Thus she's anti-racist for one group, but racist for another.

Your note on Mistral's immigration policy was news to me--very interesting.

Your comments about women and household work were made extremely forcefully and powerfully in Gilman's seminal work Women and Economics (1898), including the need for work saving machines and restaurants to free women from repetitive household drudgery and cooking. She anticipated the mechanized home and fast food America. However in this same book she make a case for eugenics and the mastery of the white race. This goes very much to your point about early feminism and women of a particular class.

By the way, the first washing machine patent was I think in the 1600s, but the fully automated machine was a mid twentieth century invention--a long time coming!

All Best,

Tony
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Unread 11-03-2015, 05:35 AM
Gregory Dowling Gregory Dowling is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Venice, Italy
Posts: 2,399
Default

Here's a link to an article on the website of the neo-Fascist organisation, CasaPound, about their celebration of Ezra Pound's birthday. As they do every year, they came to Venice and laid 50 roses on his tomb.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Unread 11-03-2015, 06:36 AM
Andrew Mandelbaum's Avatar
Andrew Mandelbaum Andrew Mandelbaum is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Portland Maine
Posts: 3,693
Default

I have been reading of Pound's interactions with the Jewish poets in his circle like Reznikoff, Oppen and especially Zukofsky who seemed able to believe the best in Pound even through some pretty disturbing remarks by Ezra in the letters between the two. Nothing worth quoting but all searchable if anyone is interested.

At times you feel its all in his economic fears, that for him the "evil" he raves against is about IDed by profession not biology but then some really creepy remark will peek out from under. Definitely a mind unhinged by the 40's.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Unread 11-03-2015, 07:33 AM
Bill Carpenter Bill Carpenter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,380
Default

Good information, Andrew. I've pressed on a little in the broadcasts. It is far being all hate-filled ravings. I don't think we can call him a "crackpot" for loathing our financial system and attempting to postulate alternatives. The fact is people who shared neither his pro-fascism nor his anti-Semitism stayed close to him. Maybe that shows a bit of the "humane equanimity" Andrew F. mentioned above.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Unread 11-03-2015, 07:56 AM
Andrew Mandelbaum's Avatar
Andrew Mandelbaum Andrew Mandelbaum is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Portland Maine
Posts: 3,693
Default

That the vitriol still seemed unchecked eve after the information on the camps was open knowledge though speaks of a ego willing to squint at murder to allow its messianic understandings to avoid any fetters.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Unread 11-03-2015, 09:16 AM
Bill Carpenter Bill Carpenter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,380
Default

Maybe. Did it seem unchecked? There are some quite chastened utterances on record. Was that just a sham? Or intermittent regret?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Forum Right Top
Forum Left Bottom Forum Right Bottom
 
Right Left
Member Login
Forgot password?
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Statistics:
Forum Members: 8,524
Total Threads: 22,720
Total Posts: 279,944
There are 2668 users
currently browsing forums.
Forum LeftForum Right


Forum Sponsor:
Donate & Support Able Muse / Eratosphere
Forum LeftForum Right
Right Right
Right Bottom Left Right Bottom Right

Hosted by ApplauZ Online