[Jan Iwaszkiewicz]

REVISION III


They sit and reminisce,
this clutch of aging men.
Their stumbling life and words
…subliminal distress.

A parliament of owls
sat perched upon the edge
of losing memories
they cannot repossess.

Tired in the dying light
they search in coffee cups
where many words are lost
then attempt to digress.

The circle of their lives
Is coming close to close.
Demeaned as demented,
they’re children in regress.

No thought beyond the words
just people and events.
Sound for the sake of sound
to stave off nothingness.



REVISION II
Thanks to Matt ‘spoons’ to ‘cups’
Last two stanzas swapped


They sit and reminisce,
this clutch of aging men.
Their stumbling life and words
repeats, again, again.

A parliament of owls
sat perched upon the edge
of losing memories,
regurgitating them.

They number coffee cups
as markers in their lives.
Beyond their work, what’s left?
These cups of emptiness.

The circle of their lives
Is coming close to close.
Demeaned as demented,
they’re children in regress.

Ideas beyond them now
just people and events.
Tired in the dying light
they let the years condemn


REVISION I
They sit and reminisce,
this clutch of aging men.
Their stumbling life and words
repeats, again, again.

They number coffee spoons
as markers of their lives.
Beyond their work, what’s left?
The ache of emptiness

A parliament of owls
that’s perched upon the edge
of losing memories,
regurgitating them.

The circle of their lives
Is coming close to close.
Demeaned as demented,
they’re children in regress.

Ideas beyond them now
just people and events.
Wearied in dying light
they let the years condemn.

ORIGINAL.

They sit and reminisce,
this clutch of aging men.
Their stumbling life and words
repeats, again, again.

They measure coffee spoons,
the number not the length,
as elements of time,
forgetting where and when.

A parliament of owls
each perched upon the edge
of losing memories,
regurgitating them.

A circle of living
that’s coming close to close.
Demeaned as demented,
they’re children once again.

Ideas beyond them now
just people and events.
Embracing dying light
they let the years condemn.

[Glenn Wright]

I like how the gentle, three-beat rhythm lets the poem unfold slowly, suggesting the diminished pace of the old men’s life. Now that I’m past 70 it has special resonance for me. I also like the references to Eliot’s “Prufrock” in S2 and to Chaucer’s “Parliament of Fowles” in S3, although the image of old men regurgitating their memories as owls regurgitate half-digested mice is a bit off-putting. That may well have been deliberate.
I was puzzled by S4L2 : “that’s coming close to close.” Does this mean that the people in the circle are getting closer to each other, or that the circle of their lives is coming close to ending? The second, I suspect. Read aloud, this would be clarified by the second “close” being pronounced with an /s/ or a /z/.
My favorite line is S4L3: “Demeaned as demented,”
The ending makes me wonder if they are aware that the years (I.e. the younger generation) have condemned them. Your use of “demented” and “children” in S4 suggests that they are oblivious to their humiliation, but “embracing” and “let” suggest the opposite.
Fine job!
Glenn

[Matt Q]

Hi Jan,

Like Glenn I spotted the Elliot reference and also thought of Chaucer in S3. There's also a Dylan Thomas reference at the close. I'm not sure how much this adds to the poem for me -- or whether in borrowing ideas and images, it risks seeming a little uninventive, too familiar in its imagery.

I think the parliament of owls works best, very well, in fact, and besides, it's not really even borrowing from Chaucer. After all it's "owls" not "fowles", and "parliament" is the collective noun for owls. I really like the idea of them regurgitating memories, and parliament seems like an apt image for this group of old men. S2 has in it's favour that it plays around a little with Elliot's, "I have measured out my life with coffee spoons", but still, they measure the number of spoons, which does seem to echo measuring out time. The idea of measuring time/life in coffee spoons is a wonderful idea, but one I'm already familiar with. The "dying light" in S5 for me is the least successful because it seems more a direct, unplayed-with, borrowing.

Anyway, I wonder if you might consider dropping the Elliot and Thomas images/riffs and finding fresher ones?

The poem scans as iambic trimeter, except for S4L1 and S4L3, which are dimeter with a more with anapaestic feel. Is there a reason for the deviation? I'd prefer the whole thing as trimeter.

In S3, the old men perch "upon the edge / of losing memories". To me, it seems like this would more naturally be "on", though that might just be me. "each perches on the edge" would work. I really like the double read of "losing memories" here.

best,

Matt

[Joe Crocker]

I pretty much agree with Matt’s take on this. I recognised the echoes of Prufrock, Dylan Thomas, Laurence Binyon, (Rumi?). I did wonder if it was some sort of cento. I liked the rhyming last lines of the stanzas and particularly enjoyed the parliament of owls S3. The weakest part for me was S2 where you use Eliot’s coffee spoons metaphor and then rather woodenly go on to explain it. I don’t think it needs an explanation. So I think I would find something better for S2L2&3.

Cheers

Joe

[Carl Copeland]

I enjoyed this too, Jan. The quotes (those I got) didn’t bother me, but the teaspoon explanation did a bit, as Joe points out, and “The number not the length” comes off as a joke for anyone capable of dealing with the idea at all. (There should be a comma after “number,” btw.)

Originally Posted by Matt Q

The poem scans as iambic trimeter, except for S4L1 and S4L3 … I'd prefer the whole thing as trimeter.

Strong second for Matt on this. S4 is a little late for metrical variation, and I was thrown totally off balance. Shouldn’t be hard to regularize if you want (“A circle of existence,” for example). I also like his suggested “each perches on the edge.”

Unless I’ve misunderstood, S5L1 and S5L3 should end with commas.

[Alexandra Baez]

Jan, I’m not very well-read (how did that happen?) [edit, 4-4-24: and of the things I've read, I often seem to forget supposedly unforgettable details], but when it comes to critiques, this does hold some advantages for their recipients, as I can often offer takes on passages simply as they strike me at face value. I think that’s always useful data for a poet to have, since poems should always be able to work on that level. (Of the references that others have cited, I only recognized “dying light.”)

I like the consistency of the “en” rhymes and half rhymes in Ls 2 and 4 of each stanza (except S4—there didn’t seem to be a good rhetorical reason to omit it there). This scheme nicely underscores the poem’s theme--onerous repetition.

S1 is satisfying in its clear introduction of the scene and the meaning-embodying “again, again.”

I didn’t get “the number not the length”—it seemed odd to me—and yet I enjoyed the quirkiness of this stanza. I like how you pinpoint the phenomenon of remembering things discretely, out of context, but unlike “forgetting where and when,” I’m not sure that “elements of time” is a precise way to convey this. It feels contradictory to say that things are remembered as elements of time and then say that their “when” is forgotten.

I also enjoyed S3’s quirkiness, although “regurgitating them,” while clever, seemed perhaps a bit over the edge. I think it didn’t quite work for me because the action of owls eating some food with the explicit intent to carry it back to their young to feed them (with only one regurgitation per food item) isn’t a tight metaphor for retelling old memories again and again. Yes, “each perches on the edge” would probably be an improvement.

To me, Ss 4 and 5 don’t add anything to the poem—they tell without evoking--and their weakness is compounded by their sudden shift into awkward meter. What’s more, as I said, I miss the “en” rhyme in S4 L2. “Condemn” seems at loose ends without a grammatical object. I do think that the poem needs something beyond the first three stanzas, but I’d like to see development and climax here.

I agree with Carl on all his comma notes.

[Jan Iwaszkiewicz]

Hi Glenn,

Welcome to the ‘sphere and thank you. We are supposed to be the only animal that can apprehend death without some dangerous imminence and as with any unpleasantness humanity faces the head in the sand response has a great currency. So to answer your question I would say that many have made themselves unaware or have been made unaware by consciousness protecting itself and the veil protecting the passing parade is not easy to pierce.

Ageism is alive and well and in part justifiable.

Hi Matt,

When we choose a word or a reference it is not gratuitous, whatever is ‘upfront’ has baggage, connotations. One part of this is reminiscence and I use the literary nods to an ageing canon as a subtext with varying degrees of success. I have changed the Prufrock a little, as well as the Thomas, hopefully clarifying.

Have you come across that wonderful borrowing from the German ‘sprachgefuhl’ it is something to aspire to.

The change in meter in S4 was an effort to ti have the reader note the change from literary to religious reference.

Thank you for the ‘in depth’ Matt greatly appreciated.

Hi Joe,

Cento? Partial perhaps. Glad you picked the Binyon it has massive currency down here. In the RSLs (the ubiquitous Returned Soldiers clubs) that particular stanza from Binyon’s Fallen is repeated every night at 9:00pm.

Thank you I have made a few changes in the revision.

Hi Carl,

It was subliminal and unwarranted. The length is gone.

The change in meter was purposeful to bring attention to the change in reference from literary to religious. The jury is still out.

Hi Alexandra,

I hear your disclaimer and appreciate it. I have changed a few things in the revision including the rhyming scheme.

The coffee spoons reference is from Eliot’s Prufrock that I had not handled well and have changed. It is well worth your while to read The Love Song of J Alfred Prufrock. It is a seminal piece.

A bit tongue in cheek with the owls. The mythical owls of wisdom (Athena) which here you question and the actual bird. Unable to digest the teeth, bones and feathers of their prey they regurgitate in pellets below their roost. I so often hear the ‘kaffeeklatsch’ (lol) regurgitating undigested knowledge in some form of ‘oneupmanship’.

The last two stanzas are my shift of thrust I believe the subtext to be far more than ‘telly’

I really appreciate your comprehensive take Alexandra. Thank you.

[Tony Barnstone]

Hi Jan,

I am with the others, a bit on the fence about the allusions, not on principle but mainly because if alluding to Eliot and others you are raising the bar for your own lines

For I have known them all already, known them all:
Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
I have measured out my life with coffee spoons

is one of the great passages from that great poem. I worry about

They number coffee spoons
as markers of their lives.

not because it relies so much on the Eliot but because to number coffee spoons as markers of their lives it a less elegant way of saying "I have measured out my life with coffee spoons." So, no prescriptions here except that I feel you need to make your image very precise and intense like the original in order for the allusion to work for you instead of against you.

Possible opportunity here:

Their stumbling life and words
repeats, again, again.

--clearly, you are trying to be redundant, like WCW in "The Orchestra": "it is a principle of music/ to repeat the theme. Repeat/ and repeat again,/ as the pace mounts." I might like it if you did something similar, "repeats, repeats, again."

Here, I think you are missing a period.

The ache of emptiness

I would like the ending to "pop" more. Maybe reverse the order to end on the stronger line?

They let the years condemn
wearied in dying light

Or even better, condense the final stanzas, cutting out the weaker abstract lines and keeping only the most powerful, as in

Demeaned as demented,
they’re children in regress
ideas beyond them now
wearied in dying light

Lots of good things here. I hope the suggestions were helpful.

Tony

[Matt Q]

Hi Jan,

A quick thought on S2 of the revision: How about "the cup of emptiness" , rather than "the ache" to play off the coffee spoon theme, and in contrast to a cup the overflows?

best,

Matt

[Jan Iwaszkiewicz]

Matt that is perfect I will post Revision III shortly. Thank you.

Tony will be back to reply thank you.