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  #21  
Unread 04-10-2024, 02:52 PM
Glenn Wright Glenn Wright is online now
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You have all given me a lot to consider. Let me share my thinking in response to your critiques.
When I started writing this poem, Mark, I imagined a dramatic monologue in which the speaker engaged in conversions with different guests at his birthday party. I quickly realized I was less interested in the particularities of these relationships and more interested in the loneliness that caused or resulted from the speaker’s inability or unwillingness to be honest with his friends.
Jim, I agree that the title is not quite à propos. How about “Another Completed Orbit of the Sun?” I want to suggest that the party has little sentimental resonance for the speaker, simply marking a natural phenomenon or an onerous task to be crossed off his to-do list.
Carl, your birthday story touched my heart. I’m sure there’s a good poem in there. You, Alexa, and others have expressed some discomfort with the verb tense in S1L1. (I must confess that I don’t feel it.). I was tempted by your proposal “Another birthday’s winding down again,” but have two reasons against it. First, the contraction signals a relaxed informality at odds with the stiff formality that the speaker adopts as a defense in his interpersonal relationships. This is also a reason against Alexa’s proposal: “My birthday celebration’s come again.” Second, the word “celebration” carries an ironic undertone that I want to keep.
Tony, your lack of enthusiasm for my adjectives is fair. “Guilty” might be a bit histrionic. “Leaden” and “heavy” might be redundant, and the personifications of heart and tongue need to have their relationship clarified. “Fading spirits” runs the risk of misleading the reader into thinking this is a poem about a guy who got drunk at his birthday party. I will, though, mount a vigorous defense of “unsaid words” and “bitter taste.” The litotes of “unsaid words” continues the ironic undertone and also invites the reader to imagine what those words might be if the speaker were being honest with his friends. “Bitter taste” is a moribund if not dead metaphor in most cases, but in this context, when the reader has been eating sweet cake and drinking delectable champagne, I think the irony revives it somewhat.
Thanks again to all of you for sticking with me on this.
Glenn

Last edited by Glenn Wright; 04-10-2024 at 03:26 PM.
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  #22  
Unread 04-10-2024, 03:13 PM
Glenn Wright Glenn Wright is online now
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Hey, Tony I think I found at least a partial fix for the adjective problem.
I changed “My guilty heart restrains my leaden tongue” to “My guarded heart restrains my guilty tongue.” This gets rid of the “leaden/heavy” redundancy and brings the personifications of heart and tongue into clearer focus, I think. It also adds an alliterative grace note.
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  #23  
Unread 04-11-2024, 07:43 AM
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Alexandra Baez Alexandra Baez is offline
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The problem with providing specifics is that that’s exactly the kind of thing that makes poems “telly,” isn’t it?
I mean, you could argue that all words “tell”--but not all language is “telly,” as I understand the term. It depends what the specifics are about, and how specific they actually are. A lot of your “specifics” are not about visible scenes, but about the narrator’s psychological reactions to them, and they’re also presented in really pretty general (and hackneyed) terms: “guarded heart,” “guilty tongue,” “unsaid words,” “aches and sorrow,” “bitter taste of life goals unachieved,” “fading spirits.” Roger gave an excellent definition of “telly” when he said that “the poem relies too much on conclusions.” In contrast, being “showy,” as you put it, would involve giving the readers enough of the data that led the speaker to his own conclusions, that these readers could follow that same trail of crumbs to similar (or equally interesting and valid) conclusions.

Quote:
The litotes of “unsaid words” continues the ironic undertone and also invites the reader to imagine what those words might be if the speaker were being honest with his friends.
This is a case in point: you could bring out this effect, and more effectively, without actually saying “unsaid words.”

Quote:
“Bitter taste” is a moribund if not dead metaphor in most cases, but in this context, when the reader has been eating sweet cake and drinking delectable champagne, I think the irony revives it somewhat.
The concept is clever, but it totally passed over my head because “bitter taste” is such a cliché that I didn’t even think to consider it in relation to your previously-offered concrete details. There’s a great opportunity here, though, to make an effective connection between the two elements.

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I quickly realized I was less interested in the particularities of these relationships and more interested in the loneliness that caused or resulted from the speaker’s inability or unwillingness to be honest with his friends.
I can well understand that, but a few carefully chosen particularities could be harnessed in the service of painting a picture of, of symbolizing, this psychological state.

Still, Tony does also have a point that there’s a “second way” of achieving full rhetorical power and has provided some interesting methods toward that end. “My guarded heart restrains my guilty tongue” is somewhat better than its two predecessors, but in the face of this phrase, my mind still numbs out on its abstractions and how many times I’ve heard them in other contexts.

Last edited by Alexandra Baez; 04-12-2024 at 08:46 AM.
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  #24  
Unread 04-11-2024, 05:42 PM
Glenn Wright Glenn Wright is online now
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Alexa and Tony, I have been reconsidering your comments, and I’m inclined to think that the problem is simply that there are too many adjectives. I started thinking about ways to replace adj-noun units with clearer, less qualified images and to eliminate as many abstract nouns as I could. This proved very difficult.
The best I could do was to make two more edits:
The first is in S2L3 to swap out “My guarded heart restrains my guilty tongue” for “Bitterness restrains my guilty tongue.” This replaces an adj-noun with an admittedly somewhat abstract noun, but moves “bitterness” closer to the sweet and delicious cake and champagne where it might gain some punch (pun intended.) Shucks, I hate losing the nice /g/ alliteration, but sometimes you have to kill your darlings.
The second was to swap out “the bitter taste of life goals unachieved” for “an empty shelf of life goals unachieved.” Yes, I know that I just swapped one adj-noun for another, but at least I swapped an abstract noun for a concrete one. I thought about using “empty wall” (where all the missing diplomas, plaques, and framed news clippings would be hanging if the speaker’s life had been more distinguished), but settled for “empty shelf” (where the trophies would be displayed) as signaling a clearer intent. I’m still vacillating on that. Let me know if you have a ‘druther.
Thanks again for your honest and thoughtful critiques and for the time and effort you have put into this.

Last edited by Glenn Wright; 04-11-2024 at 05:46 PM.
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  #25  
Unread 04-12-2024, 07:56 AM
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Rick Mullin Rick Mullin is offline
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Hi Glen,

Sorry I'm coming to this so late in the game. You've gotten a lot of great input. Strong debut poem at the Sphere.

I like the poem. I think it has an effective turn and strong close--it sticks to the rules in a good way as far as it being a sonnet is concerned.

I do have some concerns with the meter. In the first stanza things are very end-stopped and the iambic pentameter is borderline plodding. It ends with the inversion of "a table at a restaurant reserved", which naturally, as the preceding lines are spoken, would be, "a table reserved at a restaurant." It feels like rhyme and meter have you hog-tied by the time you close the stanza and you're trapped in that awkward phrasing.

The again/champagne rhyme is quite excellent, by the way.

Then comes the first line of stanza two, which is, if anything, too nuanced metrically. "smiled" is one of those words that can--maybe it's a regional thing--can be pronounced as one or two syllables, which always confuses things. There is a metrical variance in the next foot. It's not really a bad line formally, but it is so different from the metronomic first stanza that I'm thrown. The beginning of S2 defies an expectation firmly established in S1, but not in a way that advances you going forward. This is especially the case as you revert to the perfect IP of the rest of the stanza.

As I said, the turn is strong, moving from describing the scene of the party and its denouement to a contemplative aloneness.

I think, given the end-stopped approach of most of the poem, that the enjambments in the closing couplet are a bad move. I think "when gone" actually drags the idea of the previous (S3 L4) on too long. You don't need it after "hardly grieved"--obviously that would happen or not when yesterday is gone. I feel you should end S3 crisply and start the couplet crisp. You may then find a way to lengthen the sentence of the first line of the couplet and end-stop on "slowly", completing the poem with an uninterrupted line that ends on "know me", affirming the approach to meter established in S1.

Great slant line ending, by the way. It's a nice echo of the previous slant that I like.

All of the above is highly subjective observation and suggestion that may be mistaken as objectively doctrinaire criticism of a sonnet from a formalist perspective, meaning... take it or leave it! ~,:^) From my first reading through my third reading of the poem, I was drawn into examining the meter and this is what I come up with.

RM
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  #26  
Unread 04-12-2024, 08:34 AM
Carl Copeland Carl Copeland is online now
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Oh, I just noticed the empty shelf. Good move toward more “showiness.”
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  #27  
Unread 04-12-2024, 10:01 AM
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Alexandra Baez Alexandra Baez is offline
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Yes, these last two edits are improvements. The new S2L3 feels more streamlined with “bitterness” in place of “my guarded heart,” and I think that I might, indeed, feel a bit of a relationship between the bitterness and the foods now. Smart idea! And yes, “empty shelf” is far more vivid, original, and compelling than what you had there before. I agree that one might see the alleged “telly” issue in this poem as being one of too many adjectives, because indeed, adjectives (like adverbs) do a lot of processing work that is often better left for the reader to do by responding to more elemental parts of speech.

I see that Rick considers the last line of S1 to be an inversion. While I had reacted to this line the same way, I’d thought that technically it wasn’t guilty of that crime. In any case, it’s good to know that someone else is feeling the same sort of uneasiness about this line as I have.

Last edited by Alexandra Baez; 04-13-2024 at 09:52 PM.
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  #28  
Unread 04-12-2024, 10:31 AM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
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.
I'm chiming in once more to say I like what you’ve done to improve it. I enjoy watching it grow.

Once the discussion begins playing chess with a poem, especially formal metrical poems where meter and rhyme take precedence, and since I have little cache in that regard, I begin to humbly fade and it saddens me in the same way I imagine the N in the poem is saddened by the disconnectedness of his life in spite of being surrounded by good friends.

I do realize it’s a matter of skill — and that this is a workshop forum. I’m undoubtedly enlightened by the back and forth discussion. Yet humbly, from my perspective, and at my station in life, I grow impatient and must go back to the poem itself and listen to it sing. This one sings.

.
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  #29  
Unread 04-12-2024, 11:18 AM
Matt Q Matt Q is online now
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Hi Glenn,

A belated welcome to the Sphere.

So, the N celebrates his birthday with his friends and all seems idyllic. But the N is miserable. He's old, his friends are dying off, his body aches, he hasn't achieved what he wanted to in life. This, presumably, is why he feels bitter. He also feels guilty, presumably about not expressing his true feelings but instead pretending that all is well. Though if this is the case, it might be good to show the N joining in with smiling, embracing and singing at some point.

The concluding line, I find a little ambiguous, because "let" can be present or past tense. Does it mean, "I don't ever let them me know me", or "I didn't ever let them know me"? The latter seems more final, unchangeable, an opportunity missed, one more thing to regret.

"a table at a restaurant reserved."

if you want to stress repetition, that it's the same celebrations, same rituals, year after year, maybe "a table at the restaurant ..." -- to imply it's the same restaurant each year -- or even "the table at the restaurant" to imply it's also the same table. The inversion doesn't trouble me.

"My friends have smiled, toasted, embraced, and sung"

Maybe here gives you an opportunity to show the N joining in, with something like: "My friends and I have smiled, embraced, and sung". Otherwise it's just his friends doing it.

That way we have something to contrast his hidden bitterness with (but see below for another option).

"and now a few are reaching for a coat."

I have an image of three people reaching for the same coat. I guess I'd normally say, "a few are reaching for their coats"? But maybe your grammar is correct.

"and unsaid words lie heavy in my throat"

here "unsaid" seems redundant. If the words lie in his throat, they've not been said yet. So, maybe another modifier, one that adds something?

"Bitterness restrains my guilty tongue,"

is very "telly". As in, it hands us emotions clearly named, not leaving the reader much to do. Maybe leave us to guess why he doesn't say what he doesn't say? What do you think we'd conclude if you didn't tell us he felt bitter and guilty? Or drop us a sideways hint. "Tell it slant".

And on the subject of repetition, we actually get this three times:

Bitterness restrains my guilty tongue,
and unsaid words lie heavy in my throat.

his tongue is restrained (he doesn't speak), the words are unsaid (he doesn't speak) and the words stop in his throat (they don't get said).

For me, these two are the weakest lines in the poem. I reckon you might consider a major overhaul here. Maybe this is an opportunity to address the N both seeming/pretending to be happy, as well as holding something back?

As the poem stands it also might be good to find a way to indicate that the sestet is the subject matter of the words he doesn't say. Maybe even just a colon after "throat".

"Fewer friends each year, more aches and sorrow,"

Just wondered if "more aches, more sorrow" sounded better.

best,

Matt

Last edited by Matt Q; 04-12-2024 at 11:29 AM.
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  #30  
Unread 04-12-2024, 01:52 PM
Glenn Wright Glenn Wright is online now
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Thanks for more great feedback.
Rick, S2L1 is quite comma-clogged, but my thinking here was to present a list of steps in a somewhat tedious process that the speaker and his friends must perform. My thought on the enjambed “when gone” in S4L1 is to suggest that the speaker stirs from his reverie to realize that his friends are gone and he is alone. This might need some additional signposting.
Matt,I thought about the ambiguity of the verb “let” in the last line and decided that I liked it. The speaker realizes that his prior dishonesty is the cause of his loneliness, but he does not feel motivated or able to change. This links tenuously to the ambiguity in “unsaid words lie heavy in my throat.” The unsaid words—presumably the truth about his feelings, as listed in S3L1-2— are lodged uncomfortably in his throat, but his silence is also a lie, since it conceals his real emotional emptiness.
I confess to having felt some grammatical angst at S2L2, but “and now each one is reaching for his coat” struck me as a bit hyper-correct, not to mention sexist. Your fix requires a plural that spoils the rhyme with “throat.”
I concede that S2L3-4 are most in need of tuning. The naming of the feeling “bitterness” is giving several of you heartburn. I might plead that the speaker is simply describing what he feels rather than indulging in auto-psychoanalysis, but you might well counter, “So are we!” I’ll think about it some more.
I like the colon after “throat.” I’m going to use it. Since I used a colon at the end of S1L2 to introduce a list of purportedly happy things, the use of a colon in S2L4 to introduce a sad list of the things that honestly bother him functions as a kind of volta going into the sestet and reinforces the poem structurally. Even better, it solves the problem of incorporating S3L1-2 into a proper grammatical sentence.
Thanks to all. I am very pleasantly surprised at how much you have taught me about my poem and appreciate your challenging me to make it better.
Glenn

Last edited by Glenn Wright; 04-12-2024 at 03:49 PM.
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