[Roger Slater]

It's not rude to object when someone supports a fascist who praises Nazis and subverts the norms of democracy while attempting to take away health insurance from millions and threatening to put his political opponents in jail, not to mention actively seeking to undermining the election by crippling the post office and declaring that they only way he will lose is if the process is rigged against him. And that's just a short list of the ways he has taken one long continuous crap on America, without even mentioning the pandemic that Canada has managed to control but the US under Trump's leadership has totally failed to deal with. Now I take it that you don't believe that Trump is fascist, but put yourself in the shoes of those of us who actually believe that Trump is a dangerous fascist creating a crisis for our country and the world. Given that belief, do you really expect that people are going to pat you on the back and give you respect for disagreeing?

[Michael Cantor]

They aren't cheap shots. I've seen and lived in a good deal more of the world than Saskatchewan - or than Donald Trump, for that matter - and I've learned to detect the phonies, the liars, the people with a long history of cheating in business, the utter and total bullshit artists - and every criticism you read here of Donald is correct, and then some. You're drinking the Kool Aid, Kevin, and you're fortunate to be living in a country where the leadership is solid and honest - and competent - and few fall for Donald's array of lies. I'm not, and I'm terrified for my country.

[Andrew Mandelbaum]

These guys are way nicer to you than you deserve, Kevin.
We are way past justification for playing nice with Trump. Historically, we know what you are. You are a bystander and an enabler. And a coward since you prescribe from remove.


The concept of a Trump derangement syndrome is a thought virus designed to short circuit any real examination of the relation of present actions to their counterparts in the past. It isn't necessary for stooges like yourself to swallow the criminal nature of this regime. You have already digested that bit. It is how you are taught to get past the vestiges of hesitation left in you from a culture that portrays Nazis and Klansmen as the bad guys of the other team. It isn't the dehumanization of outsiders that would trouble your conscience. Just the uniforms and the sheets. This isn't political thought for most anymore. It is sport and vicarious identification with power and the familiar furniture of resentments.

The Reich-framing of the moment is hyperbole just because your team lacks competence and intelligence. The road blocks in his way are more severe than they were in the Wiemar Republic. And Trump's team is way more clumsy. Admittedly the goals are somewhat different. The techniques of murder will be more subtle but the will to power and the disregard of human lives is the same. More importantly the Certainty that is coming into its own is more immune to actual thought than anything we have seen in many centuries.

In the histories of these movements, suckers like you only double down and get cozier with the violence and the ignorance until they get real place in the game or become collateral damage. The hysterectomy issue is a case in point. The people in custody are already stateless and without real human rights. You have already swallowed that camel and now cling to the gnat that the worst accusations might be hyperbole. All the while each rise in temperature normalizes the day before.

You are gone over to the devil already. Few come back. Any that do, have a burden of proof before they are accepted back into civil discourse. This isn't about me promoting permanent polarization of right and left. The Lincoln Party guys over here have all sorts of past stances I think wrong. But they know the devil when he asks for their hand. So I can see them as legitimate parts of a healthy polis and as partners in making a world between us. I can fight the ideas of theirs when I think they are dangerous without exiling their person from the public sphere. But Waterboys for Ignorafascism or any other ideology of violence and greed have no place the future without renouncing that shit. That is who you are right now. You don't recognize the uniform when you look down. But you will look back on the ecological and political violence one day and have to own what you allowed with your assent.

The original question you asked of John seemed to hint at what others here thought of your static. It seems my first post wasn't obvious enough and you misunderstood it as a suggestion we do morality by vote. I imagine this is more clear.

Enjoy the complicity from afar. May you get the type of leadership you wish upon others, up close and personal enough that you can see it for what it is and return to common decency with a better sense of discernment than you have now.

[Aaron Novick]

No, nobody deserves the evil that Kevin champions, not even Kevin. And that leaves aside all the innocent victims such a fate would claim.

May Kevin have a sincere change of heart or, failing that... I'd probably get banned if I said.

The rest of your post is on point, Andrew.

[Jan Iwaszkiewicz]

It is not a danger without precedent and it can flourish. From Wikipedia:

Augustus employed several forms of artwork and literature to boast the image of the enforcer of the Pax Romana (Roman Peace), alternatively called Pax Augusta. He can be perceived as a historically important figure who effectively utilised propaganda in creating and maintaining his principate[1]. Augustus’ wide range of propaganda targeted all aspects of Roman society, art and architecture to appeal to the population, coinage to represent himself to the masses, and finally literature such as poetry and history for the wealthy upperclass in order to exert power and to maintain peace and prosperity. [2]

The propaganda didn’t only exist as a form of media, but Augustus’ family, the women especially played a pivotal role in helping to maintain the principate. His family was essential in acting as examples of the ideal Roman citizen, this aspect is clearly enunciated through the responsibility of his wife.[3] Moreover, one of his daughters, Julia the Elder was indispensable in solidifying Augustus' bloodline in future ruling generation, ensuring the continuation of Augustus' successful legacy.[3]

Thus, Augustus’ multi-faceted approach allowed for him to dominate public and private sectors of daily Roman life. Archaeological evidence and scholarly interpretations demonstrate the effectiveness of Augustus’ propaganda.

[Julie Steiner]

Others have addressed the key points here quite well. But I'd like to address two less important points:

Originally Posted by Kevin Rainbow

I see you like to show off your layers of rude prejudice.

Kevin, how can someone who objects to "rude prejudice" champion Donald Trump, of all people?

Your double standard here is ludicrous. I'm sorry to have to say so, but it is.

Listen to yourself.

Originally Posted by Kevin Rainbow

A good economy [...] is not "rot and "destruction". The rot and destruction is your hatefulness and the denialism of the good he has done.

Kevin, do you understand that "the economy" is not the same thing as "the stock market"?

Do you understand that small business owners, unemployed people, and people who have taken pay cuts in order to stay employed are NOT enjoying the "good economy" of which you speak?

Yes, the stock market is doing well. That's fantastic for people who have the means to invest in the stock market. Not so fantastic for these people:



Those are initial claims. Many of the people who made claims in April, May, June, July, and August are still unemployed, or have since taken jobs for much lower pay, or are people (mostly women) whose increased family obligations during the extended pandemic--extended thanks to Trump's ineffectiveness in that regard--have pushed them out of the workforce, and have kept them there.

Other signs that "the economy" is not so rosy as you claim:

A Running List of San Diego Restaurants That Have Permanently Closed Since the Coronavirus Crisis

A majority of young adults in the U.S. live with their parents for the first time since the Great Depression

In conclusion, it is inaccurate to say that Donald Trump's policies--and particularly his failure to discourage idiots from spreading the coronavirus--have been good for "the economy."

I will agree that Donald Trump has been very, very good for wealthy people. However, I fail to understand why people who are not wealthy--and who are significantly worse off financially than they were four years ago--should be expected to celebrate what Trump's "economy" is doing for someone else, while they are suffering themselves.

[Kevin Rainbow]

It's not rude to object

It is rude to target the person instead of the person's statements/position. When you call the person "depraved", a "troll", and the like that is no longer just an objection, but rude and insulting characterizations of the person.

... a fascist who praises Nazis...

Give me a break, Roger. "A fascist who praises Nazis?" This is exactly the kind of extremist labeling the media tries to trigger in people . There is absolutely no evidence to support support such labels. It is hatemongering garbage, and you would know that if you researched claims against Trump and judged Trump directly by his own message (e.g from his rallies, interviews and the like) instead of by the mainstream media, that are trying to fuel as much hate toward him (and thereby also toward folks who support him) as possible (e.g the accusation that he refused to condemn white supremacy: This goes back to another falsehood: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/tr...-supremacists/ ) The religious commitment to spreading this lie and by extension, to demonize, condemn, and write off a serious majority of your fellow countrymen as "supporters of fascism", is an example of negative bias at its absolute extreme.

while attempting to take away health insurance from millions

He is trying to replace the current health insurance with something better and more affordable for everyone, not "take it away". I would agree that a lot has stood it the way and he has yet to make it happen, but there's a big difference between struggling to achieve a better deal for everyone - which he probably will - and attempting to take away health insurance.

Do you seriously believe someone - anyone - would intentionally try to take health care away from people? Even if someone did, you would need to make a case to prove the intention, if it is going to be more than just a paranoid suspicion about someone being bad and evil. The media trying to sell and you buying it is not proof.

threatening to put his political opponents in jail

You would have a point, if the person who he threatened to put in jail hadn't actually committed a serious crime.

Now I take it that you don't believe that Trump is fascist, but put yourself in the shoes of those of us who actually believe that Trump is a dangerous fascist creating a crisis for our country and the world. Given that belief, do you really expect that people are going to pat you on the back and give you respect for disagreeing?

Of course I don't, because there is absolutely no evidence he is. We have no more evidence to prove he is a fascist than we do to prove you are. If he supported fascism, I think we would have known long before he became a president, considering how willingly he is to let people know exactly what he thinks, no matter how controversial. Apart from there being no evidence to support the idea, considering his business background and his interests as a person, there's no context by which a fascist ideology even would seem relevant to his life, why or how he would be engaged in one. Then you have his family and friends - would they really support him if he were a fascist? Then you would need to ask why and what would make them support fascism? It is a bottomless pit of things that keep failing to support the idea.

Hating him so much that you are willing to continue with such extreme labels and bias, is a shame on all of you, a shame on your media and a shame on your country. You are engaging in a sickening level of hatefulness and demonization of someone and everyone who supports him, and an unwillingness to believe they can possibly have good intentions, are standing up for their beliefs and trying to do what they believe is the right thing just as you are. You are the ones that need to wake up. You strongly disagree with him; big deal. That doesn't justify so much intolerance, hatefulness and lies.


.

[Roger Slater]

He is trying to replace the current health insurance with something better and more affordable for everyone, not "take it away".

You are probably the most gullible Trump apologist I have ever encountered. What evidence do you have that he is trying to replace the current health insurance with something better and more affordable, beyond his constant insistence that it is so?

The facts:

(1) He has been saying for over two years that he would release he superior plan within two weeks and that it is fully formed, yet there is not a single member of his administration who has seen this mystery plan or knows even its broadest outlines. There is no doubt whatsoever, in other words, that the plan doesn't exist and he is just lying.

(2) He came within one vote -- John McCain's-- of repealing the ACA without replacing it, a move that would have cost millions their health insurance and eliminated protection for prior conditions. His disappointment led him to attack and denounce McCain repeatedly.

(3) There is now a case before the Supreme Court asking to have the entire ACA declared unconstitutional, which would also deprive millions of their health insurance and eliminate protection for prior conditions. Trump's administration intervened in the suit in order to support it and join in asking the Supreme Court to strike it all down.

(4) To repeat, Trump has not revealed his secret plan that is so much better than the ACA but has lied about its existence and tried his best to eliminate the ACA without even proposing a new plan.

(5) To add insult to injury, Trump has claimed that he is the one who gave us protection for prior conditions, when his only role has been to try his best to repeal the protection that is built into the ACA. The man just lies and lies and lies, and somehow people like you keep taking him at his word. It's an absurdity, really. Try looking at the facts.

[John Riley]

It’s funny you say of us who see Trump for who he is that we are the brainwashed ones while all you can do is list his talking points. As I said, Trump is everything I was taught not to be. He is a hollow man with hollow values who had bullshitted his way through four years. We can only work and pray he doesn’t get four more. I can’t imagine the damage he could do.

[Mark McDonnell]

If the Channel 4 fact-check report about the hysterectomies turns out to be correct, then that's a good thing, at least, so thank you for posting it, Kevin. I found the story truly disturbing. It is still right, of course, that the allegations were, and continue to be, fully investigated. If they turn out to be any sort of deliberate pre-election shock tactic hyperbole and that becomes widely reported, I hope it doesn't backfire on the Democrats or the wider left in general. And of course, it wouldn’t suddenly make these awful places, or the notion of private for-profit prisons in general, any less abhorrent.

I do think that calling all Trump supporters fascists is probably unhelpful. Because it plays into their (your) hands and strengthens their sense of grievance. But it's no less silly than the tendency of people on the right to call all their opponents Marxists. (The difference there, of course, is that while politically implemented Marxism has led to some Very Bad Things, as conservatives love to point out, its central ideas aren't inherently evil, unlike fascism. Simply put, it’s heart is in the right place). US politics does seem utterly broken right now in its divisiveness. Instinctively, I feel that politics should be fairly boring and that government should consist of serious people quietly engaged in the difficult project of improving the lives of as many people as possible, as fairly as possible. I know. What a thought! To me this comes down to good wages, good public education, free or at least easily affordable health care, a real commitment to environmental issues, everyone having equal rights and opportunities and heavy taxation of the rich. And if we don't like the results we vote 'em out. If pushed, I suppose I'd say in my heart I'm a moderate democratic socialist, though I have a weird phobia about labels in general. Of course in my imagination the world is all kinds of beautiful utopias, but I'm a realist. I'm also a great believer in honesty, and in facts over emotion and rhetoric, in politics. I want my imaginative flights of fancy confined to literature and my own imagination, not out in the real world where the purveyors of them might negatively impact actual human beings. At the moment I feel utterly exasperated with the fantasy worlds, and insults to my intelligence, that the politics of both the right and left often seem to inhabit.

The hypocrisy and nonsense of certain ‘woke‘ worldviews sometimes annoys me, and I know I probably complain about that more here than I do about the right. But that’s because I expect nothing better of the right, and I worry that these things are counter productive to the left. What I see of the right in general, particularly in the US, positively scares me, as it always has. Not all, but far too many of them really are bullies, racists, theocrats, misogynists, homophobes, climate-change deniers and rampantly amoral scorched-earth capitalists. Trump's voters might not all be fascists, though some clearly are. And Trump might not call himself one, even in the unpleasant privacy of his own head, though he clearly courts, and has, the support of white supremacists, notwithstanding any media exaggeration of his Charlottesville comments. What is glaringly obvious to me, from across the ocean, is that Donald Trump is completely unfit to lead a country, due to the fact that he is an opportunistic, empty narcissist, a bully, and a pathological liar. Even if a policy he implemented had some positive effect (I don't know. I don't follow the minutae) I wouldn't be able to see it as anything other than purely accidental, because I genuinely believe, just by observing him, that he's incapable of thinking beyond his own self interest. As Michael put it, he is one of a long line of "the phonies, the liars, the people with a long history of cheating in business, the utter and total bullshit artists". It amazes me that anyone with any intelligence or moral compass can't see this. Getting him out in November is imperative.