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Unread 07-03-2018, 05:30 PM
John Isbell John Isbell is offline
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: TX
Posts: 4,952

Hi Matt,

The very word kipper is a Britishism that Americans (but perhaps not Australians) may need to google. I missed the pun on kip, thanks for pointing it out.

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Unread 07-03-2018, 08:09 PM
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RCL RCL is offline
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 5,467


Thanks for the kipper joke. But basically you have a pair of synonyms rather that an association as I (who was a very early student and illustrator, if not inventor, of the "conceptual rhyme" concept; thanks for the credit on the original page) and Zapruder, who defines and illustrates it as an "association" between "red" and "fire engine" (weak. if you ask me!) and the bizzare "deconstruction" and "deep sea diving" for, ta da!, Jacques Derrida and Jacques Cousteau!! That's it, all he says about the conceptual rhyme--an association of two words in sound or sense, maybe better called a "figmental rhyme." I like my version much better.

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Unread 07-03-2018, 08:49 PM
Matt Q Matt Q is offline
Join Date: May 2013
Location: England, UK
Posts: 3,508

Ah, Ralph, I must protest.

Firstly, and possibly a little pedantically, 'kipper' is not a synonym for 'asleep'. A kipper (in this sense) is one who tends to kip, which is not equivalent in meaning to 'asleep'. Though I guess we might conclude that since Mark is asleep in a cafe he is more prone to kipping than most and is a kipper.

Secondly, let's say it is a synonym, then I guess what I have is an 'identity' conceptual rhyme.

Which is another way of saying that, if you follow Zapruder's definition, that the two words must be associated, it's hard to argue that synonyms aren't associated. They point to the same concept no? And as you say in your thread, conceptual rhyme [is] "also called “thought rhyme” or “parallelism,” it was common to the Hebrew poetry". And I'd say that this:

for he founded it upon the seas
and established it upon the waters

this is parallelism. And the words echoed are synonyms. Just as much as this is parallelism:

Are your wonders known in the place of darkness,
or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?

where the conceptual rhyme is less close.


Last edited by Matt Q; 07-03-2018 at 09:23 PM.
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Unread 07-04-2018, 07:44 PM
Jim Moonan Jim Moonan is offline
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,331

Did Joyce give Finnegan a wake?

I'm only barely sensing what's going on here, but grasp with me, here goes...

My Worst and First Zapruder

In the event, likely, I donít this finish
there is no nail Iím hammering to start off
so thereís that -- but given time and the way
things never resolve and I get older
letís get on with it -- off we go, you and I,
while the patient sun is still in the sky.

Fly! Ride the wave of light bending
away towards the opposite horizon.
More later. Though it is getting late.
My cousin sits in the river to be cool.
It doesnít get any cooler than that
though it is a nice way to get away from it all.
She looks up she shouts out to the horizon.
She sees a ship sinking in the sky. Snap!
She closes one eye and it floats! She
imagines she sees pink swallow red white and blue
On the Fourth of July. My! My! My!

Back onshore the sailor steps steadily towards the sea
tells the waves his tale of the time there was a storming
in the offing and everyone felt it time to confess their sins
but there was no one listening. They survived. Slept.

Matt, the "View from the Cafe" is a wonderful ekphrastic with a fair bit of Zap.
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