[Roger Slater]

Lo, I do use a different name here than in "real life," and I make no secret about that and my Google-avoidance rationale. But try an experiment. Paste any line or distinctive phrase from any recent poem on the Deep End into Google, and you'll find that the Erato thread instantly comes up. I did this just now for about a dozen recent poems, and only one or two of them, for reasons that I don't understand, failed to come up in a quick search.

In some instances, the page that came up was a response that quoted the line, so it's not enough to delete the original poem.

I agree that the site itself should be something that people can find through Google, but I just don't think that anyone out there needs to be able to zero in on the precise language of every poem that is workshopped here. There's no legitimate function to allowing such searches, and, of course, there are legitimate reasons to object.

By the way, though I think it's unfair in a workshop context, I do think that publication on a blog is more like "real" publication, since it's being put out there as something for the general public to enjoy and savor, and blogs encourage traffic (with or without success), so I don't see how calling it a "blog" makes it any less publication than calling it a "zine."

(Children's book editors are among the strictest in not wanting any form of "prior publication," which is ultimately quite silly, since I can't imagine any way that workshopping a potential children's picture book on Erato could possible affect sales or dampen enthusiasm or demand for the fully illustrated book that may be based on that text.)



[This message has been edited by Roger Slater (edited February 13, 2008).]

[Quincy Lehr]

Oh, I agree a blog is different, though I would say that different bloggers use the things for different purposes.

Quincy

[Roger Slater]

Lo, taking the poems off Google would not prevent editors from coming here and discovering poems they would like to offer to publish. No one is suggesting that we charge admission or do anything to keep editors out.

But no one here has ever gotten a publication offer because an editor was specifically looking for a poem that used a specific phrase or sentence, Googled it, and found it as a result. The ability to search for poems by phrase or sentence can only be used by an editor trying to make sure that the poem has not appeared online.

[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

Originally posted by Roger Slater:
Lo, taking the poems off Google would not prevent editors from coming here and discovering poems they would like to offer to publish. No one is suggesting that we charge admission or do anything to keep editors out.
.

Actually, if you read the post which started this thread, that's pretty much exactly what Scott was suggesting - a board which was closed to non-members.

That's what I was responding to when I said I hated to see this become a "private" board with access restricted to members only.

Lo

[This message has been edited by Laura Heidy-Halberstein (edited February 13, 2008).]

[Carol Taylor]

Whether the editor takes the poem or not is up to the editor, but there is (or used to be) a technical distinction drawn between workshopping unfinished poems temporarily and publishing them.

Eratosphere used to distinguish itself from an online publishing site by pruning the critical threads on a monthly basis. That does call for a little time and trouble on the part of the administrator. I no longer post my poems here for critique because I no longer control the pruning and nobody else does it.

Moderators, you don't have to wait for Alex. Just delete any threads in your forum that haven't had activity in 30 days. Since you can't get into the admin console you'll have to do it manually.

An editor doesn't have to Google; he can drop in at Eratosphere and do a search and find just about any poem he's looking for. He can search by title, phrase or word, forum, or member name. And he can go back for months prior to the submission. For instance, I searched for the most recent Nemerov winner by author and title the other day and found it still up on The Deep End where it was workshopped several months back.

Sites that have archives are worse. You can search on a name and read the monthly archives at Gazebo, including critical forum archives. I'm not talking about "Noted on the Gazebo," which is a publishing site. A writer is asked for permission before his poem is Noted because it constitutes previous publishing. I'm talking about the workshops. I'm sorry folks, but in a site visible to an unlimited number of members even closed archives constitute publishing.

Most boards are starting to archive now. Why? To make a name for the site at the expense of the copyrights of their participants and any future editors who might publish the poems. They aren't interested in protecting the members from Googling and they sure aren't interested in keeping out lurkers. God forbid! They want to promote the site and reach as broad a readership as they can.

Many participants use such "workshops" as pseudo-publishing sites to showcase their work without the pain or expense of submissions and rejections. Many of these poems will never be submitted, and who cares? Anybody whose opinion counts has already seen them. This trend is probably at the root of the recent issue with publishers like Poetry who are now balking at taking poems with any internet exposure whatever.

Carol

[Michael Cantor]

What Carol said about the need to prune the Poetry Boards. We appear to be doing it now as well, but not as frequently - the Sphere Poetry Boards now go back through November - over three months. At the same time, we have a limited number of Moderators, and the task takes time.

I do it myself. It's not a big deal. Once I submit a workshopped poem, I delete my original and all drafts from the Sphere thread, and leave a note indicating what has been done. It's not perfect - I can't delete the posts by critics who duplicate the poem as part of their crit - but, since I don't see it as a massive problem to begin with, I'm satisfied.

So - unless the Sphere gets more aggressive about deleting poems after a month - simply take the matter into your own hands. If you're submitting a poem, and you're concerned about its appearance here - delete it yourself!

[Rose Kelleher]

Eratosphere used to distinguish itself from an online publishing site by pruning the critical threads on a monthly basis. That does call for a little time and trouble on the part of the administrator. I no longer post my poems here for critique because I no longer control the pruning and nobody else does it.

Yikes!

I wish threads were pruned after a WEEK of inactivity. Usually you get all the comments you need within the first two or three days.

Lo, I don't understand your objection. Editors can be members too, and they can send PMs to solicit poems (I've had that happen a couple of times). Making the board "private" doesn't mean "invitation only," it just means people have to log in to view the threads. And since Google can't log in, it wouldn't be able to archive the threads.

It would be a real shame if online workshopping became a serious bar to publication. Not everyone has access to live workshops. And for many members, sites like this are educational. Not everyone gets to "study under" Robert Penn Warren at Yale, but anyone can register here and learn a thing or two from Tim Murphy. If anything, the world of poetry needs more back entrances, not fewer.

[John Beaton]

What about ethics here? If an editor chooses to exclude work that has ever appeared on a public site, workshop or not, deletion may prevent detection, but would you not be deceiving that editor by submitting the deleted poem?

John

[Maryann Corbett]

John, my experience with other boards is that they are not concerning themselves with the ethics. Rather, if they archive, they're taking steps to make the poems invisible to search engines (The Gaz); or taking poems away to a private place when a poet so requests (Sonnet Central); if they don't archive, they're pruning frequently (The Waters, The Roundup).

(If anyone thinks I've misrepresented a board's policy, please correct me.)

[Anne Bryant-Hamon]

Why all the fuss when one can simply edit/delete a poem from a thread themselves if they feel the need - due to having had a poem accepted for publication somewhere. When doing so, one could state the reason for the removal of the poem, even though the discussion about the poem would be left in tact. Does anyone object to this?