[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

Here it is in the smaller size.

I still say Israel is in the wrong about this. Just because someone parks a rocket launcher in the street does not give you the right to blow up my house. And no, it is not my job to tell the people with the rocket launcher to go park somewhere else either.

[This message has been edited by Kevin Andrew Murphy (edited August 11, 2006).]

[Mark Granier]

Be curious to see what people here make of these articles, that came up while I was googling for something else. I also found a number of paragraphs apparently quoting Robert Fisk, such as the following:

Fisk said he personally saw Israelis use Lebanese as human shields during their 1980s invasion, "by forcing them to sit in front of their armoured vehicles as they were going into the streets…So for human shields, the experts are the Israelis."

then I found this:
<A HREF="http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://www.btselem.org/english/Human...Beit_Hanun.asp[/UR L]

and this:
[url=http://www.oxfam.org.uk/press/releases/palestine210706.htm]http://www.oxfam.org.uk/press/releases/palestine210706.htm</A>

What do you make of them?



[This message has been edited by Mark Granier (edited August 11, 2006).]

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

Well, I expect that the Israeli human rights group that's reporting this is being told that they "Hate Israel" for first believing the stories and then, when the stories are proven out, for publicizing them. "Do you want the terrorists to win?"

Israeli troops do creepy war crimes the same way that US troops do creepy war crimes. Depressing, but hardly a shocker. The respective administrations will first claim that they didn't do such things, then will claim that they're a few bad apples and cut them loose, despite the fact that the orders likely came from on high and it's much easier to use people as human shields if you don't view them as human.

[Lo]

Some interesting excerpts about Robert Fisk from Wikipedia:


Fisk speaks good vernacular Arabic, and is one of the few Western journalists to have interviewed Osama bin Laden (three times between 1994 and 1997).[

He quotes with approval the Israeli journalist Amira Hass: "There is a misconception that journalists can be objective ... What journalism is really about is to monitor power and the centres of power."

A New York Times review of Fisk's book, The Great War for Civilisation stated that Fisk is "least informed about Israel," pursues his agenda "nearly to the exclusion of the pursuit of straight journalism" and allows his points to be "warped by his perspective."

Fisk has also been criticized for asserting that journalistic neutrality is "no longer relevant" to the Middle East and that instead journalists are "morally bound ... to show eloquent compassion to the victims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fisk

What do you make of that?

Or better yet, what do you make of this which is excerpted from Australia's largest newspaper, The Harold Sun?


What on earth has happened to the Left when it has made a conspiracy monger
like Fisk one of the hottest speakers on our literary and activist circuit,
and a best-selling author and much-petted guest on the ABC?

Apparently every bad thing in the Middle East is our fault. Said Fisk: "I see this immense world of injustice . . . and I must say given our constant interference in the Middle East, I'm amazed that Muslims have been so restrained."

In fact, so "restrained" are they that Fisk isn't sure how much they can be blamed even for September 11.

He often spoke in the US, he said, and "more and more people in the audience believe the American administration had some kind of involvement".

"I have to say before you clap (indeed, some in his audience were applauding) I don't have any proof of that.

"I mean, the worst I can envisage is that they know something was coming and they preferred it to happen so that their strategy could be put into place."

(Hmm. What sinister strategy would that be, Bob?)

But Fisk could not leave it even at that: "Serious people across the States are asking -- people in Iowa, for God's sake -- are asking me in letters, 'What really happened? How did those buildings fall so neatly down?'

"And I can't answer them except to say I am in Beirut and not New York and I can't investigate this. But there are a lot of things we don't know, a lot of things we're not going to be told."

Like this, perhaps: that although we've read that United Airlines flight 93 crashed when its passengers tackled their hijackers, Fisk thinks "perhaps the plane was hit by a missile". An American missile.

"We still don't know," he claimed.

Don't think such insidious conspiracy mongering is new to Fisk. Only a month ago he told Lateline it was "not logical" to believe Iraqis were killing Iraqis, and that "the real question" was "who are these people trying to provoke civil war?".

Fisk's hint? "Who pays the militia men who make up the death squads? We do, the occupation authorities.

"I'd like to know what the Americans are doing to get at the people who are trying to provoke the civil war. It seems to me not very much." Those evil Americans again.

Unlike Sheen, Fisk can't be dismissed as just another crank who represents no one.

He is welcome in almost any ABC studio even today, his documentaries are reverentially presented on SBS, his books sell well in modish shops, and even at the end of his bizarre Sydney speech, the audience gave him a long and loving ovation.

This is the kind of madness in the Left that so worries Blair. And if it worries even a leader of that Left, it sure frightens me.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...-25717,00.html


Frightens me, too.

I get scared a lot lately.



[This message has been edited by Lo (edited August 12, 2006).]

[Janet Kenny]

Lo

Or better yet, what do you make of this which is excerpted from Australia's largest newspaper, The Harold Sun?

The Herald Sun is an unimportant rag specialising in gossip. Fisk stayed in Lebanon for years because a journalist-friend of his was kidnapped there and held for years. He put his own safety and life at risk in order to be there for his friend. He has paid his dues.
Janet
PS,
I just read your bit about the newspaper. I can't believe Fisk would aid the conspiracy nuts about 9/11. It's not his style. He might have said he had those messages and they were lifted out of context by the paper. Fisk is far too savvy to fall for that nonsense.

If he really said those things then he is going nuts. I wouldn't be surprised after all those years in horror.

Lo can you give me the date and source of that Herald-Sun article? I'd like to know who wrote it. The gutter-press can work in many ways.




[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited August 12, 2006).]

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

The first I ever heard about Fisk was when I came on this board several years ago and several of the more right-wing members were giggling about "Fisking" as that was the buzz on the blogosphere right. What was Fisk "Fisking" about? Oh, I think he was saying that he invasion, ahem "liberation," plans for Iraq sucked, that they wouldn't be a cakewalk, and it would all likely end in an ugly civil war. Wow, total wackjob, huh?

I'll admit that my eyes started to glaze over when I read this latest screed against his journalism, but one thing that did catch my eye was that his books were sold in "modish shops." Horrors! Those chic and trendy liberal elites!

I was also wondering where in the hell you find a "modish shop" these days. I mean, the "mod" look has been out since, like, the early 70s, hasn't it? That would be seriously retro by this point. I can point out several Goth shops (goth is still in) but they mostly carry Edward Gorey books and Emily the Strange lunchboxes. Where do you find these "modish shops" that carry Fisk books? About the only place I'd expect to find him is Barnes & Noble and I'd hardly call that "modish." Maybe "trendy corporate," but that's hardly the same thing.

Or is it one of those "You're not anyone until they stack your book to the roof at Wal-Mart like Rush Limbaugh!" sorts of things?

[Mark Granier]

Funny you noticed that remark about 'modish' shops Kevin. I picked up on it too. The word (as far as I know) has nothing to do with Mods, but derives from 'mode', which, in its turn derives, if I'm to I believe a couple of googled paragraphs, from Lady Modish in Colley Cibber's 18th Century play 'The Careless Husband'. 'Modish' does sound rather outmoded to my ear, and illustrates how even one word can set or alter the tone of an article/poem/etc. But if you get the right (as in perfectly accurate) word it can be exhilarating.That's what I love about language and writing,

Actually you'll find Fisk's books nearly everywhere, even in Eason's, Ireland's version of W.H.Smith's. I have always found his writing utterly comapssionate, to the plight of Israeli's AND Palestinians. If he did go off the rails recently, that's the first I've heard of it. Lo, I don't know if you checked out that article of his I quoted earlier. If you didn't, click on the link and read the whole article and you'll find he's disgusted not only by Israeli tactics; he acknowledges the cynicism of Nasrallah for example, and that Hezbollah should have been disarmed by the Lebanese. Hardly fanatical left-wing ranting.



[This message has been edited by Mark Granier (edited August 12, 2006).]

[Mark Granier]

In the midst of this recent bloodandshit-storm, the lights from that tiny settlement (Hope Village) keep glimmering.

I was cheered to listen to a short item on Radio 4 this morning, about Daniel Barenboim, who is fast becoming one of my all-time heroes. For those who haven't heard of him, he's an Israeli pianist and conductor born in Buenos Aires in 1942 to Jewish-Russian parents. He started learning the piano at five, and made his debut at the Sala Beyer in Buenos Aires in 1950. The seven year old received seven encores.

The item on Radio 4 was about his West-Eastern Divan Workshop (the name is take from Goethe), formed in 1999 with Edward Said. Each summer young musicians from Israel and the Middle East are invited to work together, play music together and form an orchestra.

Recently there have been tensions among the participants, due to the Middle East conflict. Barenboim felt that they needed to acknowledge what was happening, so he drafted a political statement, taking into account the 'terrorism' inflicted by both sides. Naturally, there were arguments about this statement and its verity, by both Israeli and Palestinian participants. What were they to do? The only thing possible of course; it was put to a vote, and passed by a majority.

Here's a statement Barenboim made in 2005:
"It is our belief that the destinies of these two peoples, Israel and Palestine, are inextricably linked ... either we all kill each other or we share what there is to share. It is this message that we have come here to bring."

I love to hear about this kind of thing, fucking awkward, nigh impossible SANITY at large and at work in the midst of living Hell. Let's have an encore, an INFINITY of encores, please!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...553956,00.html
http://www.time.com/time/europe/maga...340702,00.html
http://www.danielbarenboim.com/biography.htm

And if you want to hear what the voice of sanity sounds like, click here for his 2006 'Reith Lectures' on music, politics and much else. As befits a truly sane person, Barenboim is a wonderful storyteller, a billion miles from the ponderously serious voices we hear too much these days.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2006/lectures.shtml



[This message has been edited by Mark Granier (edited August 12, 2006).]

[Janet Kenny]

Mark,
I absolutely endorse your praise of Daniel Barenboim. He's a civilized light in surrounding darkness. An heir to Yehudi Menuhin who was a formative influence on my way of viewing the world.
Janet

[Lo]

Originally posted by Janet Kenny:
Lo


Lo can you give me the date and source of that Herald-Sun article? I'd like to know who wrote it. The gutter-press can work in many ways.

It's right on the linked page, Janet. March 29, 2006 12:00am and the author is a man named Andrew Bolt.

If you "google" Mr. Fisk, you find several articles with basically the same information.

Lo