[Shaun J. Russell]

Originally Posted by Mary Meriam

It seems to me that men have a jolly ol' boys network that keeps their spirits and hopes high.

Really? If that's the case, I've never come across it. And I've never felt dejected at rejection letters -- it's just a process. A cycle.

Perhaps the very perception among women that they have less chance at garnering publication than men causes them to not persist for quite as long?

It seems to me, though, that we have many highly accomplished female members in our ranks here at Eratosphere alone. Did those women (and you are one of them, Mary!) need to persist harder and for longer than most men?

[Mark Allinson]

It seems to me that men have a jolly ol' boys network that keeps their spirits and hopes high. Centuries of support in every way.

But Mary, many male poets are loners - I am one. I have no circle of jolly ol' boys to support me. So I don't know if that is the answer.

I do agree with Paul that most women do have a lot more "things" to be done in a day than most men.

Take the commonly stated fact of the household workload. I do agree that women take the brunt of it. But one of the factors there seems to come down to a nature thing: women tend not to be able to live in the squalor that many men live with quite easily. If a woman were to see my room here, for instance, she would be forced (by her own nature) to be revolted and to start cleaning the place up, which could take weeks of writing time away from her.

Male pigginess is a great time-saver.

[Jones Pat]

I've bitten my tongue, tried to be silent on this thread. And why? Because though I love reading here every day, I am not one of you because I am not a poet, much less a formal one.

But I can't be silent on this. I've spent my life in the civil rights field since my teens...civil, human, disabilites, gender, orientation, etc. . with more than two anti-war protests thrown in for sure. That is who I am and what I believe in.

This thread troubles me, not unlike what troubled me when working in special education when parents began fighting in schools for more funding for one disability over another. Autism deserves more than Down's, CP deserves more than Chromosone X....and Goddess help those with generalized cognitive or, heaven forbid, behavorial/ emotional disabilities....such a small group fighting amongst themselves, fighting between "labels" instead of for the huge task we had before us. When we did come together, we passed laws together that changed the lives of those we loved. Rights we still have to protect, but rights we didn't have when we were splintered, segregated.

Poetry, we all know, is not exactly sought after by the masses...why fight about gender between us, create segregated boards, take on yet another cause in the mix when we should be united, men and women poets, spending our time writing, honing and promoting it ?

I think to discriminate against another group, make stereotypical remarks about men on a poetry board is not the way to win the fight on behalf of women poets . It's not the way to win any cause you might champion. You use the language skills you've been blessed with, the same ones you are fighting to be recognized ...win with those skills when you speak out, be persuasive enough to change minds....granted, it takes time and patience...you touch one reader ...then another...one mind at a time. But, by doing it slowly and with empathy, you will gain far more supporters, not distance them with accusations.

I support and understand the premise of Poetic Justice but I do not support the way that is has been introduced here.

I think we all know if one needs to write, make art or music....a busy mother/wife/ woman/man/father/husband/caregiver/whatever... will find the time and a way to do it....simply because we have to. I figure that puts us all...gender, ability, orientation, religion, race, age, etc. ...in the same boat, right?

Many times without a paddle,


Pat

[Mark Allinson]

Well, Clive, all I can say is that this has been my experience, and the experience of many men I know. They sit there in filth and squalor and see nothing that needs doing - the women see it all, and can't bear to leave it messy.

Here is a graph of household work-loads from the UK:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=288

And note this statistical fact:

Women were also much more likely than men to say they ‘like’ most household tasks.

Pat, bravo, and well-said.

Poetry, we know, is not exactly sought after by the masses...why fight about gender between us, create segregated boards, take on yet another cause in the mix when we should be united, men and women poets, spending our time writing, honing and promoting it ?

I agree. This reminds me of a quote I have posted on the site before, but there are always new readers:

"A class concept does fundamental injustice to the complexities and idiosyncrasies of individuals, who are by definition distinct from one another, and only alike in vague and gross ways. To know any individual, you do worst by starting off with the widest category she or he belongs to and do best by being most precise. I cannot ever know myself 'as a man', and can never find my 'true manhood', 'essential masculinity', etc. The class concept exists only as an abstraction, apart from actual human beings, each one different, none exactly fitting any class definition, unless that definition is to be diluted beyond significance.

The whole bloody planet - its species, primordial peoples, biosphere, differentiated languages, gene pools - is sliding fast into extinction. As the ship goes down, does it matter whether it's men or women who are the first to drown? Even victims can pull an oar."

- James Hillman

[Eva Salzman]

Although some men can't be bothered to to be neat, I do find that a lot of such men, their sloppy bachelor years behind them, eventually link up with a neat and organised woman who provides them with these things without them having to take the time themselves. That must be really great to know that there are so many women out there able and willing to provide these things! I can't imagine what that would feel like, to have such things taken care of. I have also known many women writers going into relationships with some ideal of sharing, genuinely and equally, but then finding that, lo and behold, their partners are just not good at cleaning, organising, or all the myriad things that comprise a domestic support system.

I too read the article on women in education. It reminded me that so many more women attend poetry workshops, and apparently are the main readers. So where are all these educated women in government/business/publishers/journals? Why do the numbers of women published not reflect this? Why do all the articles in same papers reiterate over and over how women still do lion's share of housework? Because the guys are, quite simply not good at it? I can less good at that too, especially if there's someone else who will do it for me? Why do the articles go on about pay inequalities? These articles just confirm the problem. (And of course one needs to see why boys are doing less well, which doesn't seem to affect their career prospects however!) Seeing this article about women doing so well in education just raises more questions.

[Mark Allinson]

Why do all the articles in same papers reiterate over and over how women still do lion's share of housework? Because the guys are, quite simply not good at it?

It's not so much that men aren't good at housework, Eva, but they just don't feel the necessity of it, as women TEND to. (All of these statements are generalised, Clive, and there will always be many exceptions.) So if the kitchen sink is full of dishes, men TEND to feel easier about leaving them there than women do. Men of course can be trained to do such things (for instance, I would never leave my mother's kitchen in a mess, because I know it would make her unhappy. My filth is confined entirely to my own quarters.)

But the biggest element in time for women would surely have to be children. And until the full-term test-tubes babies come on line, I can't see this factor changing. It is the main element, I think, in all of the questions you ask above.

Here is an interesting discussion, with some more stats.

http://feminism.suite101.com/article...f_womens_roles

[Clive]

Being an old leftie (who has become an even older centre-ie), I still suspect that the major disadvantaging factor in terms of poetry publication - as in everything - is class. Of all the men and women featured in those po-thologies, I doubt that more than a handful of them will be working class.

[A. E. Stallings]

Well, they (slovenly men) don't feel the necessity of cleaning up after themselves especially if someone else will do it for them... same is quite true of children, who are happy to leave their toys all over the floor for someone else to put away.

I am a much bigger slob than my husband, who is quite tidy. Over the years I have learned to be a bit more organized, and he has learned more or less to put up with my chaos, if it can be kept within certain parameters. He went to (male) boarding school, I grew up in a certain amount of chaos. Here, I think, nurture not nature! Or if it is nature, it is an individual character thing, not a gender one.

Childrearing is another matter.

We would--all of us--write more if we had a traditional "wife" (of either gender) handling all of our day-to-day hassles, or a housefull of servants. Some writers' colonies provide this sort of atmosphere for brief periods (I was unbelievably productive at Hawthornden for a month some years back, with no telephone, having meals prepared for me, laundry done, etc.). What a luxury! But it does tend to be easier, for instance, for male poets with small children to take advantage of these opportunities than female poets, who are often--not always but, sure, most of the time--the primary caregivers. I could not take advantage of a month somewhere now.

[Clive]

Oh please, Mark - inside every woman there's a little housewife just begging to get out? Surely you're just taking the piss now. I've known plenty of slovenly women to know that being too busy cleaning is not a reason why so few women would submit to po-mags.

I suspect it's one of those things that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. There's a perception (not unwarranted) of a male hegemony in po-biz, which leads to fewer women submitting because they don't think their work will get a fair hearing, which leads to fewer women appearing in po-mags &c, which then perpetuates the notion of a male hegemony.

To my mind, women taking action to remedy the situation themselves rather than waiting for men to sort themselves out is the best way forward - Mslexia, Poetic Justice &c.

[John Whitworth]

Mary, you may well be onto something about women being, in general, less prepared to put up with a string of rejection letters. My poems were rejected by everybody for years How did I put up with it. I just thought the buggers were wrong and put it out of my mind. Pehaps that ability to ignore unpleasant truths is quite male. A silly example. When England lose a cricket match I simply refuse t read about cricket for a week and pretend it hasn't happened. Is the ostrich mentality more male than female. I suspect so. What do the rest of you think? You think it's bollocks, don't you? Very well. I shall simply, as the man said, treat you with complete ignoral.