[Quincy Lehr]

Look, the question isn't about grades here, so much as actually submitting the stuff, and it seems, from such information as has been presented, that women do less of that than men. Now, the question is why, and for some reason, I doubt that "because they do better at the university level in Britain where marks are concerned" is the answer.

Argument at hand, gentlemen!

[Mary Meriam]

Quincy, is it because women don't have the emotional or social resources to deal with many rejections? How much rejection is it possible to stand before you give up? It seems to me that men have a jolly ol' boys network that keeps their spirits and hopes high. Centuries of support in every way. All one has to do is read a little Virginia Woolf, like A Room of One's Own, to see the whole picture. Sure things have changed for the better since then, but they haven't changed enough yet.

[Jan Iwaszkiewicz]

Now here's me thinking that you would be a republican, Paul.

Yes Quincy that is why I posted what I did.

The question is "Why?????"

[Mark Allinson]

Yes, it's a world-wide phenomenon, at least in the West, Quincy, that women are enrolled in higher numbers in the arts, and do a great deal better than men.

My current first year group is typical - 17 female and 2 male. And this is a literature unit.

As Paul suggests (and I agree) - "girls work harder and prepare better, among other things."

Which means we can now safely exclude the access-to-education argument in the current issue.

[Jan Iwaszkiewicz]

We cross posted Mary, and since I also pointed out that the 'whyness' of an issue is more important than its 'isness'.

Maybe it is because proportionally less women submit work? We will never know until some fair minded souls start keeping track of submission to gender ratios.

Supposition will never lead to resolution of any issue.

Jan

It's not just in the Arts Mark. More girls are taking Physics and higher level Maths for example and boys are rapidly losing their grip on the top results of those subjects.

If you asked me why fewer women submit work for publication my first reaction would be that women have less time. Submitting and tracking work is VERY time-consuming. Wrting and submitting require a long concentrated effort. The time taken for such an effort is a luxury for many women, if attainable at all. Most of the women I know have pretty full days just keeping the show on the road.

Now here's me thinking that you would be a republican, Paul

Jan, I'm a Republican Monarchist. My head says Republic (on Paul Keating's proposed model) but my heart says God Save the Queen.

I am going to start keeping stats for submissions where I can to my humble organs. When I get time I'll do a retrospective too.

[Shaun J. Russell]

Originally Posted by Mary Meriam

It seems to me that men have a jolly ol' boys network that keeps their spirits and hopes high.

Really? If that's the case, I've never come across it. And I've never felt dejected at rejection letters -- it's just a process. A cycle.

Perhaps the very perception among women that they have less chance at garnering publication than men causes them to not persist for quite as long?

It seems to me, though, that we have many highly accomplished female members in our ranks here at Eratosphere alone. Did those women (and you are one of them, Mary!) need to persist harder and for longer than most men?

[Mark Allinson]

It seems to me that men have a jolly ol' boys network that keeps their spirits and hopes high. Centuries of support in every way.

But Mary, many male poets are loners - I am one. I have no circle of jolly ol' boys to support me. So I don't know if that is the answer.

I do agree with Paul that most women do have a lot more "things" to be done in a day than most men.

Take the commonly stated fact of the household workload. I do agree that women take the brunt of it. But one of the factors there seems to come down to a nature thing: women tend not to be able to live in the squalor that many men live with quite easily. If a woman were to see my room here, for instance, she would be forced (by her own nature) to be revolted and to start cleaning the place up, which could take weeks of writing time away from her.

Male pigginess is a great time-saver.

[Jones Pat]

I've bitten my tongue, tried to be silent on this thread. And why? Because though I love reading here every day, I am not one of you because I am not a poet, much less a formal one.

But I can't be silent on this. I've spent my life in the civil rights field since my teens...civil, human, disabilites, gender, orientation, etc. . with more than two anti-war protests thrown in for sure. That is who I am and what I believe in.

This thread troubles me, not unlike what troubled me when working in special education when parents began fighting in schools for more funding for one disability over another. Autism deserves more than Down's, CP deserves more than Chromosone X....and Goddess help those with generalized cognitive or, heaven forbid, behavorial/ emotional disabilities....such a small group fighting amongst themselves, fighting between "labels" instead of for the huge task we had before us. When we did come together, we passed laws together that changed the lives of those we loved. Rights we still have to protect, but rights we didn't have when we were splintered, segregated.

Poetry, we all know, is not exactly sought after by the masses...why fight about gender between us, create segregated boards, take on yet another cause in the mix when we should be united, men and women poets, spending our time writing, honing and promoting it ?

I think to discriminate against another group, make stereotypical remarks about men on a poetry board is not the way to win the fight on behalf of women poets . It's not the way to win any cause you might champion. You use the language skills you've been blessed with, the same ones you are fighting to be recognized ...win with those skills when you speak out, be persuasive enough to change minds....granted, it takes time and patience...you touch one reader ...then another...one mind at a time. But, by doing it slowly and with empathy, you will gain far more supporters, not distance them with accusations.

I support and understand the premise of Poetic Justice but I do not support the way that is has been introduced here.

I think we all know if one needs to write, make art or music....a busy mother/wife/ woman/man/father/husband/caregiver/whatever... will find the time and a way to do it....simply because we have to. I figure that puts us all...gender, ability, orientation, religion, race, age, etc. ...in the same boat, right?

Many times without a paddle,


Pat

[Clive]

Oh please, Mark - inside every woman there's a little housewife just begging to get out? Surely you're just taking the piss now. I've known plenty of slovenly women to know that being too busy cleaning is not a reason why so few women would submit to po-mags.

I suspect it's one of those things that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. There's a perception (not unwarranted) of a male hegemony in po-biz, which leads to fewer women submitting because they don't think their work will get a fair hearing, which leads to fewer women appearing in po-mags &c, which then perpetuates the notion of a male hegemony.

To my mind, women taking action to remedy the situation themselves rather than waiting for men to sort themselves out is the best way forward - Mslexia, Poetic Justice &c.