[Dan Halberstein]

Huh. Palestinian Islamic Jihad, operating from Lebanon? Why would Lebanon shelter a Palestinian group? Since these individuals are Lebanese by citizenship, do we now confer upon Lebanon the right to protect them as Lebanese nationals, although their passion in life is "regaining" their Palestinian homeland?

More to the point, given the criminal history of the group, why is the operation of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, in Lebanese territory, allowed by the government of Lebanon?

Although the incident has not been shown to involve Israel, it is telling that you consider the targeting of terrorists, to be terrorism.

Again, my understanding of the term has to do with the purposeful targeting of non-combatants. I don't think you can call Palestinian Islamic Jihad to be non-combatants, given that their raison d'etre is the destruction of the state of Israel.

I understand that we've had to go around and around about a definition of "terrorism" here, and don't much want to do that again.

Suffice it to say, armed groups other than official Lebanese government forces are not supposed to be operating in Lebanon.

This has been Lebanon's responsibility to guarantee since 2000. Since she is either unwilling or unable to fulfill her obligations, once again, she owes Israel thanks for the assistance, if indeed Israel participated in this incident at all.

It strikes me that Syria and Lebanon both have a remarkably sanguine attitude toward groups and individuals who hold murder within, and overthrow of, a neighboring sovereign state, as their inalienable right.

I know that if "terrorism," "sovereignty," and other such terms are moveable feasts, we are much more able to draw a moral equivalency between murderers and soldiers, between nations and gangs, etc.

No such equivalency, however, exists in this case. Israel is not protecting thousands of little workshops where bombs are being ready to be walked into weddings in Syria and Lebanon. Israel does not declare its intention of wiping Israel and Syria off the map. Israel does not declare that it would be better if all Muslims moved to Lebanon, so they could all be murdered more easily -- as Nasrallah has said of all Jews moving to Israel.

The word "Jihad", as used by "Islamic Jihad," refers to an armed strugggle. I don't think "Jihadis" call themselves that to refer to their "spiritual" struggle against their own demons. One of the problems with being in an armed struggle is, your opponents may be armed as well.

The only real open question here, is whether these "holy warriors" were killed by Israelis at all, or by other, "holier-than-them" "holy warriors."

Dan

[Ethan Anderson]

Hey, three hundred posts!

Cookies? Coffee? Sports drink? Hot towel?...

[Dan Halberstein]

Sure. Sports drink. So you say. Carrying a tube of "tooth paste" with that?

[Daniel Haar]

Dan and Lo,

Car-bombing in my book is terrorism. Or was the IRA not a terrorist organization? Does targeting political figures now disqualify you from terrorism? Is Shamir now not a terrorist because he murdered Count Folke Bernadotte? I don't care if it were Kim Jong Il walking down the streets of DC; if someone blew him up in a car bomb, it would be terrorism. You say Lebanon was "protecting" the Jihad leader, but I think it is more like Israel has exiled him. Lebanon has been discussing disarming the Palestinian militant groups, and was close to an agreement. These arms are a left-over from the civil war. Can you not see that car-bombing a Palestinian leader is inherantly destabilizing toward Lebanon? Israel thinks it is justified in killing its enemies wherever they reside, with no thought of the political consequenses. Any reprisal attacks, in their eyes, constitutes terrorism. I probably do not like the Islamic Jihad anymore than you do, but that doesn't justify an attack on a leader on the streets of Sidon. You say the Israeli connection to the attack is not proven. Well, Lebanon believes it. Did we wait for a UN resolution to attack Afghanistan? My point is that Lebanon, had it believed Israel was behind the car bombing in Sidon, would have been justified by international law in attacking Israel. Now we all know such a move would have been suicide, but it is just silly to say that Israel is completely guiltless in the Lebanese conflict. Hell, they were an occupier of Lebanese territory for 18 years. They supported both the Phalange and the SLA in Lebanon, which were known to terrorise and/or torture their opponents. This occupation, in a large part, led to the creation of Hezbollah, which is, yes, an organization that uses terrorism on occasion.

- Daniel

P.S. I can think of some bad things that Hezbollah has done since 1982, but can anyone think of recent terrorist attacks committed by Hezbollah against Israel, but before July of 2006?

P.P.S. If Israel had evidence that people in Lebanon were responsible for planning the attack on Tel Aviv in April, why didn't Israel demand the alleged criminals be handed over to Israel? I agree that this was a heinous crime. And if Lebanon had refused, Israel may have been justified in an attack on the Islamic Jihad in Lebanon. This would have been different than funding an underground group to commit a car-bombing. I also realize this car bombing hasn't been definitely tied to Israel. We may never know. It does call into question Israel's absolute innocence, however.

[This message has been edited by Daniel Haar (edited August 19, 2006).]

[Dan Halberstein]

Daniel,

Your last post raises interesting points:

1) Conventional war, such as we have recently seen (on the Israeli side), when waged in self-defense (as it was,) and when waged in accordance with accepted norms (as it was, despite strong protestations to the contrary seen here,) is definitely justified, so far as war is ever justified. Except in the eyes of the apologist and the pacifist, this war was a just war; you have to object to Israel having the rights of a nation-state, or object to the institution of war itself, rather than object to this war on its merits, for the war itself to be considered somehow aberrent (as Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi -- as well as Israel -- reasoned); however,

2) the instance you raise is an example of extrajudicial killing -- of combatants, pledged to the killing of citizens of the state which putatitvely did the deed, and pledged to the destruction of that state. There seems to be no evidence that Israel was involved, other than "Lebanon believed it was," but Israel has been implicated in targeting terrorists abroad often enough, that for the sake of this interesting point, I'll stipulate to the notion that Israel has engaged in this activity.

So the argument shifts. It is not that this recent conventional war on the part of Israel is wrong; it is that Israel's extrajudicial killing in this past instance makes Israel the moral equivalent of Hezbollah, despite the fact that Israel's targets were combatants, whereas the targets of Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad are indiscriminately chosen, with great rejoicing at "actions" against civilians, and brazen announcements that the goal is to kill all Jews.

The first thing we must recognize in this new formulation, is that one must decide what action Israel could undertake in order to combat the threat at hand.

You suggest that Israel should acquire prescient knowledge of an attack (such as the April attack,) and demand prior to the attack, the handing-over of the enemy plotter.

This strategy has two flaws:

1) It is possible that Kreskin is an anomoly, and, being a rarity among Israelis, is unable to fully cover the geopolitical landscape on behalf of his countrymen, employing clairvoyance, telepathy, and, if needed, the bending of spoons to determine when and where attacks will take place.

If, in fact, Israel is not peopled by psychics, sometimes Israel will not know these attackers until the time of their successful attacks (particularly "first time offenders." You have a lot of those where suicide bombing is popular.) Since Israel regularly foils some plots, but not all, it is safe to conclude that Israel sometimes will not know of an attack in the plotting phase, making impossible such an appeal to Lebanese authority; and

2) The nation-state in question, Lebanon, asserted that she exercised no sovereignty over the south at the time she was supposed to be the authority Israel was to appeal to. Indeed, some villagers there are now seeing Lebanese army troops for the first time in 30 years.

Problem (1) makes impossible the identification of these criminals prior to the attack; beyond that, it can be easily foreseen that Lebanon would not hand terrorist plotters on Israel's say-so, even if she could -- particularly "first timers" who have not yet murdered in God's name.

Problem (2) is once again a question of Lebanese authority and sovereignty. Lebanon allows the motions of Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, et al., with the excuse that she is powerless to prevent these groups' operations. This is abdication of sovereignty. By doing so, Lebanon in effect declares her sovereignty to be a sham. Lebanon has simply declared herself not to be the duly constituted authority over the South.

And now, by international accord, Lebanon is declared to have such sovereignty. What does Lebanon do? Immediately strikes a deal with Hezbollah not to disarm them, not to expel them from the south, and in exchange, to be allowed by Hezbollah to carry the weapons of the Army in public. What is happening here is Hezbollah allowing Lebanese troops to coexist with them, and nothing more, in clear abrogation of the cease-fire.... AGAIN.

Well, since Lebanon refuses to exercises real authority, and refuses (again) to abide by its cease-fire obligations, the future looks as ugly as the past. But it's the past we're concerned with here, the past in which Lebanon said she abdicated responsibility outright.

So, your remedy seems a bit disingenuous to me. Israel can not get Lebanon to so much as relocate its terrorists, never mind hand them over, despite the fact that Lebanon agrees to do so. This does not leave appeal to Lebanese authority as a viable option.

Israel's other options consist of:

1) target the combatants only, in actions such as the one you complain of, or

2) fight a conventional war against such groups, as we have recently seen, in hopes of having a larger-scale effect on the combatants, but at the cost of some non-combatant lives.

Since we can conclude, if Israel is held to the standards other nations are held to, that the recent war was a conventional war in terms of Israeli actions, and not a terrorist plot; we can further conclude by this argument that, if one is concerned with Israeli sovereignty (as Israel is), this messier alternative is morally superior to the "terrorist" alternative of an extrajudicial killing of combatants. In other words, terrorists are engaged in war at all time, but states must be engaged in war only when engaged in conventional war such as we have just seen.

The logical conclusion of your protest against targeted killings is "it's about bloody time Israel invaded the country like men, instead of conducting these spot killings!"

I do not see other options Israel has not tried; after all, the withdrawl agreement of 2000 was explicit in its appeal to Lebanese authority over the territory in question. Appealing to a nonexistent authority seems a singularly ineffective remedy.

Originally posted by Daniel Haar:
...My point is that Lebanon, had it believed Israel was behind the car bombing in Sidon, would have been justified by international law in attacking Israel.

Quite questionable, when Lebanon denied sovereignty in the area in which this attack took place. But at the very least we can say, Israel would have been justified at any point in the last few years in waging war against such groups. They were supposed to be removed as a condition of peace.

It is just silly to say that Israel is completely guiltless in the Lebanese conflict. Hell, they were an occupier of Lebanese territory for 18 years. They supported both the Phalange and the SLA in Lebanon, which were known to terrorise and/or torture their opponents. This occupation, in a large part, led to the creation of Hezbollah, which is, yes, an organization that uses terrorism on occasion.

We have gone over the definition of terrorism as it relates to Hezbollah; I use the term "terrorist" to be generous, as "genocidists" sounds so hyperbolic, despite its literal truth.

I do not hold Israel blameless. At the very least, any nation must realize that participation in war is not a good way to win the love of another nation's populace.

I think the deep Israeli involvement up to 2000 was a mistake. I think palling around with SLA and Phalange was a mistake. These Lebanese citizens were far less restrained than Israeli forces themselves, and Israel, in my worldview, became complicit in their actions.

This is why it is good, from my point of view, that Israel extricated herself from Lebanon. It was not worth it to attempt to occupy a large swath of the south, in order to prevent these attack, when in exchange for leaving Lebanon, Israel was finally being given the security guarantees which were her reason for engagement in the first place.

The difficulty is, as Syria's proxy, Lebanon still refused to stop provoking Israel. Now that Syria does not directly rule Lebanon in Beirut, Beirut still refuses to dislodge Syria's proxy in the South.

P.S. I can think of some bad things that Hezbollah has done since 1982, but can anyone think of recent terrorist attacks committed by Hezbollah against Israel, but before July of 2006?

UNIFIL seems to notice a lot of rocket launchings by "unidentified armed men" in its reports. There was at least one incident involving 8 rockets fired indiscriminately at Israeli villages, during the present reporting period but before the July actions; there were two mentions of a group of four rockets per action, in two separate actions, as well as mortar fire and the shelling of a village mayor's office, in the July-January report, etc. Even when it is clearly Hezbollah which takes follow-up action, UNIFIL is careful not to say Hezbollah can identified as the firers of the rockets, so they like your idea that Hezbollah is not terrorist.

From ADL: http://www.adl.org/terrorism/symbols/hezbollah.asp

Major Attacks

July 18, 1994: Suicide bombing of AMIA Jewish Center in Argentina: 87 killed, 300 injured.

March 17, 1992: Suicide bombing of Israeli Embassy in Argentina: 29 killed, over 250 injured.

October 23, 1983: Suicide bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut: 241 marines killed.

Goals
Destruction of Israel
Establishment of an Islamic state in Lebanon and over Jerusalem

Methods
Pioneered use of suicide bombings in Mideast. Also conducts paramilitary operations against civilian and military targets.

Sponsors
Iran, Syria and Lebanon

U.S.-Related Activities

Prior to September 11, 2001, Hezbollah was responsible for the deaths of more Americans around the world than any other terrorist organization.

On December 17, 2004, the U.S. government designated Hezbollah's satellite television station, Al Manar, as a terrorist entity and placed it on the Terrorism Exclusion List.

According to the FBI, Hezbollah maintains a network of "sleeper" cells in the United States. U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage testified before Congress in September 2002 that Hezbollah's capability to organize an attack against U.S. targets was similar to that of Al Qaeda.

In 2002 the FBI uncovered a Hezbollah cell in Charlotte, North Carolina. Several operatives were eventually convicted of raising funds and procuring dual-use technology - including night-vision goggles, global positions systems, stun guns, naval equipment, nitrogen cutters and laser range finders - for the group's military wing. The cell's ringleader, Mohammad Hammoud, was sentenced to 155 years in prison.

In January 2002 a U.S. federal judge ordered Iran to pay $42 million to the family of Charles Hegna, who was executed by Hezbollah terrorists during the 1984 hijacking of a Kuwait Airlines flight.

On June 25, 1996 Hezbollah terrorists filled a tanker truck with explosives and detonated it outside the Khobar Towers housing complex in Dahrahn, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. servicemen were killed and over 370 Americans and Saudi Arabians were injured.

Designated by the U.S. as a Foreign Terrorist Organization.

I take it since '96, they've contented themselves with lobbing Katyushas and denying responsibility. However, Lebanon still permits this organization -- which considers its goal the destruction of Israel -- to operate on Lebanese soil. This, from European Strategic Intelligence and Security Center (all emphasis is ESISC's): http://www.esisc.org/Note%20Hezbollah%20eng.pdf#search=%22%2B%22terror ist%20actions%22%20%2BHezbollah%22

The admitted aim of the organisation was for a long time: to create an Islamic nation over the ashes of the state of Israeli [sic]" In 1997, Scheik Nasrallah declared that a unilateral retreat of the Israeli army from southern Lebanon would not end the conflict: [b]There won't be peace as long as the Jewish enemies occupy Palestine. The Jewish entity is a terrorist antion. Palestine is for the Palestinians, not for the Jews. Only our weapons and our martyrs would bring peace to this zone."

Different declarations by Hezbollah announced its intention to conquer Israel step by step and that the first of these steps was to defeat the Israeli army in southern Lebanon and then to free the zone. Nevertheless this warlike rhetoric though defining a military conflict, has sometimes been interpreted -- especially by certain analysts both academics and part of the Israeli government -- as a simple propaganda aimed at the locals. This school of thought considered (basing itself on the declarations and the logic of the Hezbollah) that the real objective and more pragmatic aim of the leaders of this organisation was to controul south Lebanon as the first step before taking control of the Lebanese State.

...The members of the armed militia of Hezbollah have real military potential. They undergo a severe training generally given in the Bekaa plains around Balbeek by the Pasdarans, the guards of the Iranian revolution. These Pasdarans also train also the fighters in the use of missiles and other equipment delivered by Iran...

The ESISC report lists Hezbollah attacks which extend through 1994, then the following (I'm going to quit including their bolding, as I am getting tired of typing brackets):

Moreover, Hezbollah has continued to bombard regularly the north of Israel, after the Israeli retreat from south Lebanon. It has even gone further training, financing, and arming certain Palestinian terrorist organisations when not planning itself attacks against Israel.

Thus:

- On February 12, 2004, the Israeli security forces arrested Ra'ad Mansour and his son Dia Mansour, two staff members of Tanzim, armed organisation of Fatah, in Naplouse. Both admitted to have been in contact with Hezbollah;

- In June 2005 a Tanzim cell planning a suicidal attempt on Israel was dismantled in Naplouse. The investigation established that certain members of this group took their orders from Hezbollah.

- On October 16, 2005, the Israeli security forces arrested Majd Kamal Abd al-Jabbar Amer, member of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the armed branch of Fatah and of the Palestinian security services. Engaged in terrorist activities. Majd Amer admitted during his interrogation that he had been financed byHezbollah through a "liason bureau" installed in Gaza;

- In March 2006 Zakaria Zubeidi, chief of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades at Jenine interviewed by a German journal Welt Am Sonntag admitted that Hezbollah supported his organisation: "Without the assistance of our Hezbollah brothers we would have been incapable of carrying out our fight... they give us money, weapons, train us and educated us."

- In April 2006, during an interview by a Lebanese journal, Hassan Nasrallah admited that his organisation provided weapons for the radical Palestinian factions;

- On May 25, 2006, Hezbolah's television al-Manar, broadcasted a documentary showing images of members of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades training in Lebanon. ...

...We couldn't close this chapter without pointing out that Hezbollah television al-Manar (that can be received in many countries) has specialised in the broadcast of programmes inciting to terrorism and hatred of the Jews.

All this to say, Daniel, that Hezbollah, though terrorist in its occasional actions (i.e., ongoing rocket attacks,) and genocidic in its goals, could make the case that it is not practicing terrorism exclusively, having subcontracted many of its terrorist activities to other terrorist groups in its local network. Nevertheless, trust that Hezbollah is anything other than a terrorist group that has grown political and social appendages, misses Hezbollah's own stated raisons d'etre, the destruction of Jewry, the destruction of Israel, and the furtherance of the Iranian Islamic Revolution elsewhere in the Muslim world.

I know, I know, it's all in the eye of the beholder, if we look at it squinting, and in just the right light, for example, in the dead of night or during a solar eclipse. But I'm kind of thinking the U.S. government is right in calling these guys a terrorist organization.

Thanks for hanging with me for this somewhat lengthy post -- it hurt me more than it hurt you!

Dan

edited to eliminate a triple negative when a double negative was just fine, in the paragraph on UNIFIL reports.

[This message has been edited by Dan Halberstein (edited August 20, 2006).]

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

Originally posted by Dan Halberstein:
I do not hold Israel blameless. At the very least, any nation must realize that participation in war is not a good way to win the love of another nation's populace.

Well hearing this comes as a bit of a shocker, considering your past posts.

Anything you think Israel can/should do to win the love of the Lebanese populace? After the current war is over, I mean?

[Lo]

Originally posted by Daniel Haar:
Dan and Lo,

P.S. I can think of some bad things that Hezbollah has done since 1982, but can anyone think of recent terrorist attacks committed by Hezbollah against Israel, but before July of 2006?

Not "Hezbollah" by name in many cases, but as Dan has already made the case for "joint goal" and "joint funding" if not actual "joint venture," I'll feel safe in posting these:


June 4, 2003 Aqaba Summit - Abu Mazen and Ariel Sharon vow to stop violence, end occupation according to the road map. Hamas and Islamic Jihad vow to continue violence. Fatah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad joined in killing four Israeli soldiers in Gaza (June 8) despite the call to end violence from Fatah leaders.


Aug 20, 2003 Hamas suicide bombing in a Jerusalem bus claims 21 lives

Sept 10, 2003 Twin suicide bombings kill 15 in Israel; Israel moves against against buildings surrounding Yasser Arafat's Mukata compound on the following day.

Oct 4, 2003 Palestinian Islamic Jihad Suicide bomber kills 20 in Arab-Jewish owned Haifa restaurant.

Aug 31, 2004 16 Israelis were killed in a suicide attack on a Beersheba bus. This was the first successful attack in many months. Another attack in the French Hill section of Jerusalem on September 22 killed one. During this period Israeli troops continued to operate in the West bank and Gaza, catching would-be terrorists, but also inflicting many casualties among civilians.

Sept 29, 2004 Qassam rockets launched from Gaza kill two children in the Israeli town of Sderoth. Israel launches operation "Days of Repentance," occupying a large area in northern Gaza, demolishing houses and killing over 80 Palestinians by October 7.BANNED POST

Oct 7, 2004 Multiple suicide attacks in the Sinai desert against Egyptian tourist areas frequented byBANNED POST Israelis including the Taba Hilton hotel and Ras al-Shaitan (Ras Satan). About 27 persons killed, mostly Israelis. Initial reports attributed the attack variously to Al Qaida and to Palestinian groups, though Palestinian groups claimed no involvement.

Dec 12, 2004 An explosion destroys an Israeli Joint Verification Team (JVT) terminal near the Egyptian-Gaza border, within Israel. Five Israeli soldiers killed. The explosion was carried out by tunneling from the Gaza side and planting a huge explosive charge. Hamas and the Fatah Eagles take responsibility. The attack was not condemned by the PNA.

Feb 25, 2005 Suicide bombing by Islamic Jihad kills 5 in Tel Aviv. Israel freezes planned handover of Palestinian towns.

June 20, 2005 Would-be suicide bomber Wafa Bis arrested at Gaza checkpoint on her way to carry out a suicide attack against an Israeli hospital.

July 13, 2005 Islamic Jihad suicide bomber kills 5 civilians in Netanya mall. IDF reoccupies Tulkarm. Hamas responds with massive rocket fire on Israeli settlements and inside Israel, killing one. Israel responds with massive manhunt against Hamas members in Hebron area and in Gaza, renewing the policy of assassinating terror leaders, claiming they are only killing those who are about to carry out terror attacks. PNA attack Hamas in Gaza, Hamas counterattacks. Civilians are killed in the cross fire.

Sept. 1` 2005 Last Israeli soldiers leave Gaza. Settlements handed over to Palestinians Sept. 12. Israel also evacuates four settlements in northern West Bank without incident. Palestinians loot and destroy greenhouses that were bought for them by Jewish philanthropists.

Sept. 23, 2005 After Palestinian authority bans parades with weapons in Gaza, but before the ban goes into effect, the last such parade held by Hamas ends in an accidental explosion that kills about 20 people. Hamas fires about 40 rockets on Sderot, in Israel. Israel responds with massive campaign of arrests in West Bank and targeted killings in Gaza; Hamas pledges to respect cease fire.BANNED POST

March, 2006 Over 40 Qassam rockets fall on Sderot in March, this number increases in the next months. IDF responds with shelling of launching sites and IAF raids to kill leaders of Popular Resistance Committees, Islamic Jihad, Hamas and Fatah Al-Aqsa brigades involved in the attacks.

June, 2006 Israeli targeted killings in Gaza and West Bank continue, while Hamas fires about 90 Qassam rockets into Sderot and other Western Negev communities. Seven Palestinian civilians having a picnic at a Gaza beach are killed by an explosion attributed by Palestinians and HRW to an IDF shell. IDF denies that it was shelling the beach at the time, and points out that shrapnel recovered from the victims does not come from IDF shells.

June 25 Following announcement of a "truce" agreement by the PNA, Hamas kidnap Israeli soldier from Israeli army outpost inside Israel, and kill two others. They demand release of Palestinian prisoners. Israel refuses to negotiate, demands release of soldier. Israel

July 12 Hezbollah terrorists cross the blue line border with Lebanon, attack an Israeli patrol, killing 3 and capturing 2 soldiers. Additional soldier dies the following day and several are killed when a tank hits a mine, pursuing the captors. At the same time, Hezbollah began a series of rocket attacks on northern Israel. In subsequent days, Israel carried out massive but selective bombing and artillery shelling of Lebanon, hitting rocket stores, Hezbollah headquarters in Dahya quarter of Beirut (see Beirut Map) and al-Manara television in Beirut, and killing over two hundred persons, many civilians. Hezbollah responds with several hundred rocket attacks on Haifa, Tiberias, Safed and other towns deep in northern Israel, killing 13 civilians to July 18 (See Map of Hezbollah Rocket Attacks) , and a Hezbollah Iranian supplied C-802 missile hits an Israeli missile cruiser off the cost of Beirut, killing 4. Hezbollah rocket also sinks at least one foreign neutral ship and damages an Egyptian one. G-8 meeting calls for cessation of violence, return of Israeli soldier and disarmament of Hezbolla in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 1559 and UN Security Council Resolution 1680.BANNED POST
http://www.mideastweb.org/timeline.htm


Like Dan, I must say that I don't find Israel blameless at all. They retaliate often and (much to my admitted dismay) they initiate occasionally - and their retaliation is sometimes deadly for terrorist and civilian alike. I find it sad and I find it frightening. I'd like to think the Jews are somehow above "reacting" and "overreacting" but they are not. They are as human as the rest of the world, and like all humans, they feel, they bleed, they fear and they anger.

Solutions? I have none. I am uneducated and unschooled in the ways of Middle Eastern politics. My role here at home is to play the Devil's Advocate and I take it seriously. Most days I can be found following Dan from room to room, shouting questions at him through the closed bathroom door, researching during dinner, arguing during Scrabble games, waking him up in the middle of the night to question/argue/research with him some more.

I read everything I can about the current issues in Lebanon and when he comes home from work, I pepper him with questions about Israel's cupability, their rights, their reasons, their history, their future.....I say, "this is wrong" he says, "that is wrong" and still, even with his knowledge and my curiuosity, we have come up with nothing other than blind hope and a belief in God that someday, somehow, somewhere, someone will find the answers we can't find and that a lasting peace can begin and take root in The Middle East and that Israel, Lebanon and all their surrounding nations can co-exist.

If you ask me, the children are the answer....the children are now and will always be "the answer." What the children need are parents on both sides of The Blue Line who are willing to put aside their differences and their learned behaviours and their learned hatreds and fears in order to assure that this next generation can grow up free and clear of a thousand years of much-too-heavy baggage.

The question has to change from "who's been at fault?" to "Who's going to make it right?" in order from the answer to change from finger-pointing across a barbed wire fence to a nod of acknowledgment and a sense of responsibility and an acceptance of a challenge....and God help us, the children who can do that can be the ones who "make it right."

Killing the children is not the answer, teaching them is.

Lo

[This message has been edited by Lo (edited August 20, 2006).]

[Dan Halberstein]

Originally posted by Kevin Andrew Murphy:
Well hearing this comes as a bit of a shocker, considering your past posts.

Anything you think Israel can/should do to win the love of the Lebanese populace? After the current war is over, I mean?

Well, Kevin, since you raise the point:

After Hezbollah is eliminated from the south of Lebanon, Israel could work in joint teams with the Lebanese Army and international forces in discovering and destroying arms, tunnels, and other infrastructure of war throughout the country, if invited -- despite the fact that this is Lebanon's Hezbollah problem, not Israel's problem, and it has been made worse by the Lebanese government's inaction.

It would be at great risk to their own IDF personnel, and so this is nothing to undertake lightly. It is also the logical role of Israel in post-war Lebanon, assuming Lebanon is allowed by its Hezbollah masters to make this show of common cause with the Zionist enemy. Big assumption.

Very little else can be done in regard to the "hearts and minds" of those who subscribe to the Islamic Jihad/Hamas/Hezbollah point of view, that is, that Jews and the state of Israel are evil, and that exterminating both is the only solution to the problems of the middle east; so, in regard to the minority which believes this to be the case, I would suggest that Israel be prepared to defend herself against the inevitable attacks -- unless of course the Lebanese authorities once again need assistance in finding and destroying these groups, such as Israel provided in her most recent actions. Sadly, I think Lebanon is beginning to tilt that way already.

But Israel should also be prepared for the day that the other communities in Lebanon speak up -- again -- against their well-funded Hezbollah "fixers." Working to cut off Hezbollah funding, and insisting on international funding to the government of Lebanon, so long as that government actually attends to both its internal and its international responsibilities, would be in Israel's interest. It would also be a logical extension of Lebanon's Cedar Revolution of 2005. But the idea, of course, cannot come from Israel. (Bit of a Catch 22 there.)

Anything Israel does is anathema to many communities in Lebanon, the Arab world, and the Muslim world. It's dressed up in lies, paraded across al-Manar and al-Jazeera in the worst possible light, and generally trotted out as another instance of Israelis continuing to have pulses and draw breaths, a grave offense against either the Arab people, the nation-state of ________, or God himself, depending on the institution reporting. Lately, Western liberals find it trendy to take the "Israel's existence is offensive" point of view, as we have seen here. So Israel's contributions will never look particularly chummy, until this sort of regionwide hate in the middle east, and classwide hate in the US among academics and some other elites, grow tiresome enough that they are disregarded.

In the perfect world, of course, it would be wonderful for Israel to take over the curriculum development in the now-abandoned Hezbollah "schools" (since of course, Hezbollah will not be in the south of Lebanon anymore.) I think you should campaign vigorously for this support, since Lebanon has had such trouble running a school system in the past, that it has turned over this function to an Iranian puppet group.

If these children are taught the truth about their neighbor and their history, perhaps they won't grow up to create new instances of violence, and these children come from the very population most supportive of hate-attacks, such as we have seen with the rockets, because they are being fed a steady diet of this drivel in the schools.

Maybe it would actually have an effect on the youngest, and probably a few who are cynical about their indoctrination thus far.

Now, can you think of a way Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad can help win the hearts and minds of the Israeli people?

Thanks,

Dan

[This message has been edited by Dan Halberstein (edited August 20, 2006).]

[Janet Kenny]

Originally posted by Dan Halberstein:


1) Conventional war, such as we have recently seen (on the Israeli side), when waged in self-defense (as it was,) and when waged in accordance with accepted norms (as it was, despite strong protestations to the contrary seen here,) is definitely justified, so far as war is ever justified.

Dan,
I realise that you feel Israel's situation very deeply.
Nevertheless, please allow me to say that this term "conventional war" seems like a gross obscenity now that industrialised war has become so monstrous.

If I must accept the unpopular label of "pacifist" in order to say so, I guess I must accept that. I am one of those who think that war is no longer possible. Somehow we must tackle these horrors without leaving a trail of carnage which we are told is "conventional" which seems code for acceptable. "Accepted norms" should be in Bob Clawson's thread. That's a really horrible weasel phrase. Acceptable to whom? Normal by what standard?

It is a war crime to destroy infrastructure. Now that crime has become an "accepted norm". "Normal" people do it all the time.

And I would say the same thing to the Hezbilah. You will tell me that that is ridiculous and I would agree with you.

It has to start with someone who doesn't mind being ridiculous.
Janet



[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited August 20, 2006).]

[Daniel Haar]

Lo,

I disagree that Hezbollah can be held responsible for everything Hamas has done. If so, Israel could attack Lebanon in response to any Hamas attack. They have funding from the same source, true. But many of their actions can be seen as reactions to things Israel has done to Lebanese or Palestinians, respectively. (Not a justification of those actions.) But I think both groups are pragmatic, sometimes fanatic, national political actors who use bad means. You see them as the same, big jihadi army. I hope I am right, just because it would make the future easier.

Question: both Egypt and Israel take a lot of funding from the US. Though many conspiracy-minded folks think this means we control both governments, don't you agree that funding, even a lot of funding, isn't the same as absolute control?

Lo, I agree with the rest of your post, and I thank you for your candor. I hope you do not think I believe that Israel is always wrong and Arabs are always right. The history of the last 60 years in the Middle East is quite sad, and none of the actors are pure. One of the things that infuriates me about the recent war is that I expected that the war may weaken Lebanon as a whole, and strengthen Hezbollah politically. I hope that this is not the outcome of the war, but I fear it is so.

- Daniel