[Roger Slater]

No, pre-1923 copyrights were not subject to renewal.

Here's a handy chart from Cornell showing all the possibilities. There are a limited number of "special cases" for pre-1923 works, but they are not relevant here.

PS--
Janice, your Gutenberg link correctly says: "Any book published anywhere before 1923 is in the public domain in the U.S." I read the whole page and there's nothing to qualify or limit this statement."

[Andrew Frisardi]

The key statements regarding rights for my project are these, from Chicago Manual of Style, 14th ed., 4. 26 and 4.28. They’re the rationale behind my getting permissions for using the 1932 edition of the VN (which I reproduced in my book):

Pre-1978 published U.S. works: Works published before December 31, 1922, are now in the public domain. Works pubilished during the years 1923 through 1963 are still under copyright if their copyrights were properly renewed in the twenty-eighth year after first publication. . . . Works published from 1964 through 1977 will be protected without fail for 95 years.

Pre-1978 published foreign works: In the United States, a pre-1978 foreign work automatically receives the same term of copyright at as pre-1978 U.S. work, but without regard to whether proper copyright notice ever appeared on it, and without regard to whether copyright was renewed in the twenty-eighth year after publication. . . . It should e noticed that the U.S. copyright term for foreign works, even after restoration, does not synchronize with the protection of those works outside the United States. If a French author of a work published in 1922 lived until 1970, the work would now be in the public domain in the United States but would remain under copyright in France until 2040 [70 years after the author's death]. If the same author had published another work in 1923, that work would retain copyright in the United States until 2018, still twenty-two years less than in France.”

This is why the 1932 edition (“official” because it’s the standard text) of the VN’s copyright lasts until 2027 in the U.S.

[Roger Slater]

Andrew, I think that last statement only applies to work created before 1923 but not published before that date. So, if an author dies, say, in 1990, but has unpublished work from 1922, it will be under copyright until 2060, but if he published work in 1922, it will be in the public domain. I'm not sure of this, though, since the international aspects are complicated. What I have said thus far is certainly true if the work is published in the US, but if Allen is unwilling to undertake translations unless he can be assured publication in every country, there may be issues. Still, Cavafy died more than 70 years ago, so I suspect all his work that was published in his lifetime would be in the public domain in the EU as well.

I don't get what you mean by "standard edition," and certainly its wide acceptance cannot revive Dante's copyright. The selection, order, comments, editorial decisions, etc., may be substantial enough to warrant copyright protection, however, which may be why you needed, or thought you needed, permission to translate it.

[Philip Morre]

Dear Andrew,
How interesting, bizarre even. So Finnegans Wake, say, (1939) will still be in copyright in the US for 20+ years, while freely available in supermarket editions (as if!) in Europe? I wonder how websites are affected? I can put Yeats's (died 1939) last poems on my own website - to be read by Americans - but can the Eratosphere not? Or is the latter extraterrestrial? Of course, in practice, the blogosphere is rife with unpermissioned poems - often inaccurately reproduced . . .
Philip

[Allen Tice]

Everybody, thank you! Right now, it looks about as confusing as I feared it would, but there seem to be shafts of possibility shining through the thunderheads. I need to reread the thread closely. Since I'm most interested in publication the USA and UK (and Canada & Australia & Kiwi) where most potential readers of English are, I won't sweat the Russian or Brazilian markets too much. There are loads of Europeans from north to south who are super-fluent in English though, and who don't yet read Greek. My first concern should be local, I guess.

Further clarifications are welcome!

[Andrew Frisardi]

Originally Posted by Roger Slater

I don't get what you mean by "standard edition," and certainly its wide acceptance cannot revive Dante's copyright. The selection, order, comments, editorial decisions, etc., may be substantial enough to warrant copyright protection, however, which may be why you needed, or thought you needed, permission to translate it.

That's right, Roger, the edition is "standard" because philological experts decided on certain variants over others in spots in the text that medieval copyists had messed with or fudged up.

Philip, it really is bizarre isn't it. I still don't understand the whole thing, but it was easy to get the permission letter so not a big deal.

Allen, that's one way to look at: if you write for the permission, even if you don't actually need it, you can't really go wrong.

[W.F. Lantry]

Originally Posted by Allen Tice

Further clarifications are welcome!

Allen,

Here's the most important clarification: These correspondents are our friends and colleagues, but you need to remember that none of this, none of it, is legal advice. It's all worth the paper it's printed on.

If you translate, then you need to work with a publisher. That publisher may (should) give you a contract. Part of that contract will spell out responsibility for copyright clearance. It will either be yours or the publisher's. Even if the publisher is pursuable, they may try to produce a signed document from you which appears to hold them harmless, and attempts to shift liability on to you.

Well beyond the legal problems are the ethical ones. You wouldn't want to think of yourself as someone who skirted best practices in working on the corpus of an admirable author. Perhaps worse, you wouldn't want other people thinking of you that way. Honor dictates that you take the time to discover the exact answer to your question. Then you'll be able to proceed with a clear conscience, and your reputation intact.

Realistically, it likely won't take more than a day of serious digging. You're liable to spend more than that in the translation of a single poem. And if you share your research methods with us, we'll be grateful.

Best,

Bill

[Janice D. Soderling]

Bill's attitude is also mine.

FWITWON, Allen, though I am not claiming to be covering every step, and am only relating from my own relatively limited experience, I find it most practical to start with the translations to see if I can do it to my satisfaction and so that I have some samples to show. (I have to feel an affinity though it is never a waste of time to work with translations IMO. It is a learning process. I'm guessing it is the same for you.)

Then if the material is under copyright material I get in touch with the copyrightholder and ask for permission. You might also want to take into consideration that the publisher you find isn't in the US. I have several books of scholarly translations from Greek poetry to English that were published (and purchased) in Greece. Several countries have financial schemes to spread their literature to the greater public. In the US there is an organization called ALTA http://www.utdallas.edu/alta/which is a confederation of US-based translators. (There are similar organizations: in the UK there is one for Swedish-English, SELTA http://www.selta.org.uk/home.php.)

Look at these home pages, perhaps even consider joining if you have some publications under your belt. I used to belong to both ALTA and SELTA but because I made my living as a commercial translator I eventually dropped out. It is a good way to establish professional contacts, a network.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. Best of luck with this venture.

[Janice D. Soderling]

You might want to begin by looking at these publications
http://www.utdallas.edu/alta/publications/alta-guides

ALTA Guides


The ALTA Guides to Literary Translation are brochures that address specific areas of interest for literary translators at all stages of their career. Each guide provides practical information, professional advice from established translators, and lists of useful references and online resources.

The Making of a Literary Translator (PDF) is a great place to begin. With helpful hints about the basics of translation and how to develop your skills, this guide is indispensable for the young or unpublished translator, and is also a beneficial reference for more experienced translators.

Now that you’ve been translating awhile, you probably want to publish a translation, or you may need assistance selecting an appropriate text to translate for publication. The guide Breaking into Print (PDF) is the place to begin your journey. It discusses special obstacles faced by the literary translator as well as provides advice and resources to help you become a better-informed and more successful translator.

The guide The Proposal for a Book-Length Translation (PDF) will help direct you through the process of preparing a proposal for a publisher, including how to research and then obtain the English-language rights to the original work. From query to publication, this guide is a valuable resource for the literary translator.

Even a brilliant translation won’t sell unless it’s properly promoted. The guide Promoting Your Literary Translation (PDF) will give you the tools to promote actively and creatively your published translation. Promotion is a competition; this guide will help you traverse the process of promoting your translation.

From novice to seasoned professional, all translators will benefit from our newest guide, The Literary Translator and the Internet (PDF). This practical guide offers the nuts and bolts of promoting your translation using the Internet and its many resources.

[Maryann Corbett]

Janice, thanks for that last post! I haven't looked at it all, but I mean to.

I think we need to store a copy of that post in some permanent place. A sticky at the top of the translation board? Down in the resources list at the top of Eratosphericals? Let's preserve it carefully!