[Seree Zohar]

Kevin:

re:
Also, in your opinion, given that there have been unnecessary deaths, do you think the blowback from those will outweigh any tangible benefit resulting from the necessary deaths? Or, more simply, do you think the recent bombing of Lebanon will lead to less bombing of northern Israel, both in the short term and the long term?

---------
This is going to sound a bit dumb, after all the other posts, but I have learned to 'think' less, and 'do' and 'hope' more. Not being privy to all the info I would need towards supporting a clearly balanced opinion (the IDF is hardly going to say, ok girl, whatever you want to know to explain to eratosphereans, well, let us make your wish come true!), I am left with little option but the retrospect form of gaining information: to listen carefully, read between lines, and for the most, support groups that are involved in dialogue, or integrated activity. Thus, I follow the actions of various organisations supported by Israeli and world Jewry, (because Muslim and other Arab organisations try to boycott these activities rather than support them or set up independent ones of their own) run by women, for women: that conduct courses for Arab women in Israel, teaching them a range of capabilities: how to critically review attitudes and approaches, how to use natural or ethnic skills to set up cottage industry, how to respect (understand) and apply western business ethics while maintaining their cultural ethics, how to learn and then teach their children to respect otherness, and so on. Or the many and varied groupsand organisations that run integrated summer camps, study groups, debating and other activities for Israeli Jewish and Arabic youth, all geared to breaking down barriers and reaching for, at least, some kind of bridge where the both can stand and chat peacably.

As I already mentioned, there is usually a lot more behind- the-scenes diplomacy going on than ever makes most news items, overseas especially. The MidEast is like a boiling cauldron: a tiny change in the heat, and the contents either stop cooking altogether (stagnation), simmer (6 years of Katyushas, for example; tunnels under the southern borders for arms smuggling, etc) or suddenly bubble furiously (capture of Israelis; and the aftermath of those moves). Only prob is, one never knows who is going to be changing the heat level. From what appears to be any moment to the next, there may be a/several sudden secret diplomatic move/s that will alter the WHOLE picture temporarily or permanently. I hardly imagine Sadat popped over for one visit, all was decided over a frap, and papers signed to announce peace. But it was all so hush that when announcements were made, it seemed as though it had happened overnight. I happened to be in Israel when Sadat made his official visit there, too. The sense of elation, of relief, of hope for a better future, not only had people laughing but crying with joy.

Yes, it is a highly sensitive kind of peace these days, one Israel is loth to unbalance by making stronger moves against Egypt for allowing the tunnel digging etc from Egyptian jurisdiction - that is how much Israel just wants to co-exist (see my earlier comments relating to nothing more than status quo). It is hard to imagine other nations of the world simply accepting these kinds of tunnels and sending its own people in to dismantle them, at high risk.

So, as far as the immediate and the longterm situation in northern Israel, I HOPE there will be 'peace'(read: military inactivity) long enough to actualise an authentic peace, I HOPE Hezbolla realises it perhaps went a bit too far, I HOPE Iran and Syria understand that 'even, just' the capture of 'only a couple' of Israelis, after years of harrassment, is more than Israel is prepared to tolerate, as Israel believes its people have a right to feel safe at least within Israel's own borders which, until officially changed by negotiation, should be respected as such; and more than anything, I HOPE no organisation does anything else stupid to trigger another whole series of events causing bloodshed and other forms of damage. But Kevin, honest? Tomorrow is another day, and anything could happen in Israel or its surrounds, and probably will.

[Seree Zohar]

Mark:

re:
'More than 130,000 Israeli anti-personal (AP) and anti-tank (AT) mines, per UN figures, are polluting South Lebanon'


I do not have official figures. Therefore I cannot refute or support the above.

But I have 'experience'.

The most predominant: Terje Larsen, a UN official, stood smiling with Arafat and declared in the name of the UN that Israel conducted a massive massacre in Jenin. Which turned out to be an utter lie. (It took many, many months to get any kind of official staement fm the UN - not an apology, mind you - 'correcting that initial mis-impression'). Kofi Annan stood smilingly shaking Nasralla's hand in 2000 and thanking him for maintaining law and order in southern Lebanon, thus bypassing the official government, and despite Hezbolla being considered a terror organisation.

There are many other instances of UN-'sourced' info coming from dubious sources, and UN officials being seen or heard making statements or moves that do not comply with truthfulness and authenticity and what the UN is supposed to stand for. Maybe in this case they are right. But maybe they are wrong. Over the last few years it has become abundantly clear that everything UN originating in regard of Israel needs to be taken not with a grain but a heaped spoonful of salt and rechecked several if not many times over a lengthy period, until "the real truth" can be verified.

[Mark Granier]

Here's an interesting thing, Fisk being criticised for being too critical of Hezbollah etc. Sure, the writer is biased himself, we can see where he's coming from. But it does seem to support the contention that Fisk may be (at least a good part of the time) trying to be as fair-minded as possible. No?
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article5681.shtml

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

Originally posted by Seree Zohar:
and more than anything, I HOPE no organisation does anything else stupid to trigger another whole series of events causing bloodshed and other forms of damage. But Kevin, honest? Tomorrow is another day, and anything could happen in Israel or its surrounds, and probably will.

Sad but true. And those words really echo with today especially.

Here's to hoping.

Kevin

[Robert J. Clawson]

Originally posted by Lo:

"If this alone were the case: and have clarified that my attitude is defined by the policies of each side in the current dispute, not by the qualities of the civilians on either side then you would not be identifying yourself as "antisemitic" with such vehemence and apparent glee, Mr. Clawson, you would simply state that you disliked and disagreed with the politics and the politicians of The Middle East. The all-encompassing word "antisemitic" would never have entered the picture. {My emphasis, RJC.}

Well, I'm sorry, it did, Lo. To wit:

Originally posted by Dan Halberstein:

"Now then, for the detractors here:

...please, please enlighten me as to why every other country on the face of the Earth has the rights I enumerated in previous posts.... Why is that principal okay within the "rules of war" and "just war theory" -- until we reach the Israeli case?

I know I can get persistent on this subject, but the double standard has always struck me as ludicrous, and born of political faddism if not (oh no! The "a" word!) Antisemitism." {My emphasis, RJC.}

For verification and full context, see Dan's post on the first page of this thread.

""Anti-Semite" includes all members of the race, Bob, not just the "leaders.""

Am I not allowed to qualify my usage? Am I not allowed to dispel the imminent accusation, to try to remove it from the table? Am I not allowed to shed light on a word too often used as a cudgel?

"You dislike and disagree with Bush, his government and his politics, correct?"

You bet.

"And yet, I've not heard you describe yourself as "Anti-American" because of it."

He and his administration persistently imply Anti-Americanism to chill his detractors. I wouldn't call myself Anti-American, but I'll readily admit to being an Embarrassed American.

(Incidentally, Dan sounds MUCH brighter than George.)

"To brand yourself "antisemitic" over and over again and then attempt to explain it as nothing vmore than a hatred of Middle Eastern leaders is just not working, Bob, it just isn't....and it won't work no matter how often you continue to repeat it in each post."

You may have something there. I've certainly been stubborn and relentless. But I don't recall expressing hatred. I'm generally careful about using that highly charged word.

"To annouce yourself "Anti-a-whole-race" is just not the same thing as saying "the leaders of the country they happen to live in are idiots.""

Well, I've tried to contain my wonderment at the stupidity to the current situation, the topic of the thread, not to the two "races." I don't believe I've wandered off the subject except for a few trips to 1948 to set some context, perhaps a Biblical reference or two.

"If that were the case, every last American and possibly every last Englishman would be universally hated....and it would be justifiable."

I can't argue this way. It's a hypothetical case based on my announcement of being "Anti-a-whole-race," when I've already been accused of "twisting" the word rather than shedding light on its usage.

I keep trying to remember who on Able Muse first called me antisemitic. I wish I had an electronic slave that would locate that exchange. It's easy to recall emotionally, but the actual source eludes me.

As with Dan's joke about "Pale Steen," my claim doesn't appear to have worked, and, as always, it would be tasteless to blame it on the audience.

Well, I'll not defend my usage any further, and I beg no conditions for this concession.

Shameless O'Clawson






[This message has been edited by Robert J. Clawson (edited September 11, 2006).]

[Robert J. Clawson]

Originally posted by Seree Zohar:

"...it's all relative, in't it?"

At the risk of offending the Chinese, Seree, it's same sing: death and destruction. The U.S. sold the cluster bombs to Israel. Do you ever wonder about the minds of people who invent these weapons? Would that we could gather a representative group of them in a Ted Koppel setting and try to plumb their depths.

Bob

[Robert J. Clawson]

Originally posted by Dick Morgan:

"Shameless: Humint is "Human intelligence"."

Thanks. Sounds like a breath mint.

"IMO Hezbullah will talk peace if the IDF depleted their weaponry to the point they need time to resupply. This will continue until we hit Iran and Syria and change the symetry."

Oh, boy, can't wait. I'm almost out of gas.

[Stephen Foot]

Mark,

A promised, I’ve come back to give you some specific responses to the questions you put to me. The core issue, it seems to me, is your objection to the comments I made about, your/the liberal, philosophy that under-girds the plank of the anti-Israeli position and from which position you make your argument. No, I didn’t attempt a mindmeld when I identified what your philosophy was as you had already provided the information way back in this thread. It’s a position all liberal people take when the issue of Israeli aggression is discussed, both generally and in regard the Lebanese conflict in particular, namely:

Would it help if all perceived members of the 'I hate Israel club' preface each post in future by making an official declaration? Something like:

1. We find some of Hezbollah's methods (such as suicide bombing ) to be obscene
2. If it is proved that Hezbollah are using people as 'human shields' we find this obscene too
3. We find what we perceive to be Israel's heavy-handed use of force from the beginning to be, if not obscene, deeply disturbing
4. We believe in Israel's right to exist
5. We believe broadly in Israel's right to defend itself (even if we disagree about its methods)
6. We believe Lebanese AND Israeli victims (especially, though not only, civilians) are equally lamentable.

[rough draft]

Your position is that all fair minded, humane and reasonable people could sign their name to this. It is, broadly speaking, the liberal position regarding Israel’s conflict with Hezbollah. It’s strongly implied that those who can not put their name to it are beyond the pale, religious nutters, etc, etc, with whom it would be impossible to come to any agreement.

I have made my position clear in regard to my bias in favour of Israel, at which you expressed such ironic surprise. Perhaps I was too reticent; if you had called me a Zionist I would not have blanched. I have intimated in an earlier post how I came to hold such views and which subsequently provoked a degree of ridicule. Although I am no longer a member of the Brethren Movement and I am now what some describe as a ‘devout atheist’, I still have some respect for their beliefs, one of which was a high regard for the Jewish people, their traditions and culture. Their sympathetic attitude is primarily based on the theory of Dispensationalism, but that’s another story. It leads me to my point- no member of the Brethren could sign up to your Liberal Charter because they are pacifists, many of whom refused to fight against Hitler in W.W.II, who shouldered the same hatred the other Conscientious Objectors endured.

The pacifist position is the only, truly tenable, neutral stance to take, you should not confuse their voice with yours or mine; neither you or I belong on that hallowed ground. What we have to do is decide which shit stinks the most and deal with it. So, first hole in your neutral Liberal Charter.

Not all people think Israel has the right to exist. Not all of them are religious nutters and ideologues but intelligent and reasonable people. They believe the whole idea of Jewish sovereignty is an aberration and an absurdity, given how many generations of Jews have lived under the sovereignty of others. They believe, given the magnitude of the injustice they inflicted on the Palestinian people, that there is just cause for the dismantling of the Jewish state. There are some who think it preposterous that you even have to mention Israel’s right to exist in the first place. Second hole in the Liberal Charter.

Genocide is bad, war is bad, murder is bad, rape is bad, dropping litter is bad... yes, we all agree on what’s bad, but we don’t all agree on how to differentiate between the really bad shit and the not so bad shit. We can’t differentiate between such things on a linear curve until we reach a point when we all agree it’s as bad as it gets. We can’t open with a Katusha and raise the bid with a cluster bomb as if we’re playing a game to rules and there’s some referee somewhere.

The only statement that holds water is number 6.

Far and few, far and few,
Are the lands where the Jumblies live;
Their heads are green, and their hands are blue,
And they went to sea in a Sieve.

Stephen

[Dick Morgan]

According to James Zogby, on C-Span, Egypt,to date, has had ten thousand books translated into Arabic. Spain translates 10,000 books A YEAR into Spanish. How can anyone support cultures that impose such ignorance on their subjects, or do what they do to their women in the name of Allah?

Dick

[wendy v]

With all respect to those who devote their lives to gaining poli knowledge or taking sides, and though I've hardly been able to skim this bulky thread, I feel a need to say I think it sucks.
Is an energy sucker. A vacuum. An oxygen thief.
There is very little wisdom to be found here, not much listening or tendering,
no meaningful healing or enlightenment or understanding taking place, just the self-indulgent sound of
scoring points, catching game, playing to win. And like
history, it only repeats itself. I've just come from the Met board
where Marion Shore says to someone in peripheral kindness, We are a literary, not a politcal forum.
The excess of this thread came to mind.

I don't suggest we turn away from politics and war and all the other stuffs of life here in General Talk.
Indeed I find many of the political discussions and head crashes intelligent, even enlightening
at times, but not this one. We can choose not to read here, and yet,
it still sucks. Literally. Is an energy sucker. A vacuum. An oxygen thief. This is not a plea to cease and decist, but some small morsel
of food offered at the o so unstable table of All Things in moderation.
Where wisdom breathes may we all be, but from here, I only see
Dan H loves playing king, Shameless is the jester, Kevin is the passion police, and war is. Next. The new guy suits up, wants
to find a role, wants, like everyone else, to win. Perhaps
there'something to learn about war, about the tribe,
and about how humans
discuss war or listen to one another, but I suspect such learning can only come when the win
is no longer the most important thing.
Nothing personal, people. I've nothing against
spectacle, but endless spectacle....


Yours in Pollyana clothes. And of course,
a poem.


A Brief for the Defense

Sorrow everywhere. Slaughter everywhere. If babies
are not starving someplace, they are starving
somewhere else. With flies in their nostrils.
But we enjoy our lives because that's what God wants.
Otherwise the mornings before summer dawn would not
be made so fine. The Bengal tiger would not
be fashioned so miraculously well. The poor women
at the fountain are laughing together between
the suffering they have known and the awfulness
in their future, smiling and laughing while somebody
in the village is very sick. There is laughter
every day in the terrible streets of Calcutta,
and the women laugh in the cages of Bombay.
If we deny our happiness, resist our satisfaction,
we lessen the importance of their deprivation.
We must risk delight. We can do without pleasure,
but not delight. Not enjoyment. We must have
the stubbornness to accept our gladness in the ruthless
furnace of this world. To make injustice the only
measure of our attention is to praise the Devil.
If the locomotive of the Lord runs us down,
we should give thanks that the end had magnitude.
We must admit there will be music despite everything.
We stand at the prow again of a small ship
anchored late at night in the tiny port
looking over to the sleeping island: the waterfront
is three shuttered cafés and one naked light burning.
To hear the faint sound of oars in the silence as a rowboat
comes slowly out and then goes back is truly worth
all the years of sorrow that are to come.


-- Jack Gilbert