[Brian Allgar]

Originally Posted by John Whitworth

Janice, my comment can be put this way: Men and women are inclined to lie and cheat. Scientists are men and women. Therefore scientists are inclined to lie and cheat. t is, I would have thought, unarguable. You keep attributing statements to me that I have not made.

You seem to think we should have faith in scientists. Faith?

John, you write as if you believe that lying and cheating were the rule rather than the exception.

The scientists who lie and cheat are, in the main, those who have been paid to do so, usually by "big business" whose interests are diametrically opposed to the truth, or by certain moronic sects with more money than sense. To suggest otherwise is to do a great disservice to the objective pursuit of knowledge in which most of them are engaged.

Do you think that David Attenborough (whom I know we both admire) lies and cheats about life on Earth in order to make a few fraudulent quid from the BBC?

[W.F. Lantry]

Originally Posted by Brian Allgar

The scientists who lie and cheat are, in the main, those who have been paid to do so

Well, actually, John's right about this one. It's why every IRB includes an ethicist. In fact, it's the whole point of IRBs and peer review and faculty handbooks. Humans are not angels. We put an extra half spoonful of sugar in our coffee, just because we're feeling like it that morning.

Thanks,

Bill

[W.F. Lantry]

Originally Posted by Brian Allgar

It was only when primitive algae came along about a billion years ago that large quantities of oxygen were created as a consequence of photosynthesis.

This is actually my favorite fact in the universe. In the beginning, there was no oxygen. Everything was anaerobic. Then cyanobacteria started taking advantage of the situation. They ate everything they could, and pooped out oxygen. For like a billion years, life was good. They partied like it was 1999. Then, the oxygen levels started pushing 20%. They literally poisoned themselves.

Everything does this. I could take some sugar water, put it in a jar, and pour in some yeast. Party time! I can just hear the little organisms saying "Pay no attention to all that gloom and doom. What do the experts know? I'm having fun, and they're just a bunch of condescending progressives anyway!" And they'll go on partying, all the while pooping out alcohol, until they drown in their own excrement.

But we're way smarter than that, aren't we? We tell ourselves we're more thoughtful than yeast or cyanobacteria. We tell ourselves we've been given dominion over the earth, and we've been told to take care of the garden. But who cares? It's more fun to party!

Thanks,

Bill

[Brian Allgar]

Originally Posted by W.F. Lantry

Humans are not angels. We put an extra half spoonful of sugar in our coffee, just because we're feeling like it that morning.

Bill, I make no claim to be any kind of angel, but I can promise you that I never put an extra half-spoonful of sugar in my morning coffee. Only three spoonsful per cup, and only four cups. Yes, I know - such unswerving virtue is almost unbelievable, isn't it?

[Michael Cantor]

Originally Posted by Brian Allgar

The scientists who lie and cheat are, in the main, those who have been paid to do so, usually by "big business" whose interests are diametrically opposed to the truth, or by certain moronic sects with more money than sense. To suggest otherwise is to do a great disservice to the objective pursuit of knowledge in which most of them are engaged.

Yes! Very well put. Unfortunately, it sums up both the problems facing the earth, and this idiotic thread. I really think the rest of you should invest your time in working on your poetry, and let John and Charlie talk to each other until they get into a fist fight. When I see the amount of time that good poets have devoted to trying to convince a few blockheads that the earth is not flat, it makes me want to weep.

[John Whitworth]

Don't cry, Michael. Be happy. Your moral superiority is in excellent shape.

[Charlie Southerland]

Janice, I clearly paid attention to what you said in post#71. I took it to heart and really was not being as flip as you posed in post#73.

You said: Science is about predictability of known fact that something else will happen and can measure the rightness or wrongness of that hypothesis, then it can be assumed as fact until disproved. I went with that. To my mind, the simplest explanation is the best one. Hence, my retort.

I don't own a Farmer's Almanac.(published continuously since 1792) A lot of farmers do though. They follow it religiously. They swear by it. It is their "Farmer's Bible." There isn't a whole lot of science to it, but there is a lot of experience to it gathered over hundreds of years. Would it be fair to say that it is a scientific book? Of course not. Is it accurate? Nope. But if you plant your potatoes by it I guarantee that 999 times out of a thousand, you'll have a successful tater patch. That's pretty damn scientific. No wait, I meant practical. There are many such examples in that little book.


When the meteorologist says it's gonna' be really cold. I dress for it.
When he says, "It's gonna' be really hot, I undress for it and get the sunscreen out and wear a hat.
When he says it's gonna' rain, I pack an umbrella.
You get the picture. He has a college degree, works with scientists, follows models, checks and double checks his information, yet, many times he is either outright wrong, or premature in his scientific predictions. In other words, he's fallible.

But you know what? I listen to him and act accordingly because he spares me hardship if I believe he's going to be right. That's practical.

So we come to hurricane forecasts based on American models and European models, which do yearly forecasts based on current weather patterns and historical patterns. For the past nine years— 3,420 days and counting, they have predicted 2 to 3 or more major hurricanes to hit the U.S. of A. In 3,420 days, not a single Major hurricane has come close to hitting us. You would think that a pattern has developed and that they would re-jigger their forecasts, but nope, it doesn't work that way. The scientists keep forecasting 2, to 3, to 5 major Atlantic hurricanes a year, scare the crap out of people, and when the scientists are wrong, no one says crap about it. And then, and then, when one major hurricane hits, the scientists beat their chests and say; '"See, we told you so." Those of us who live in the Midwest, South and Plains pay extreme attention to the weatherman when tornado weather is forecast. Or when major blizzards or ice storms are forecast. Sometimes they happen, sometimes they don't. The scientists have redundant systems and models to back them up, but they don't know for sure. Even if they did know for sure, they can't stop the weather from happening.

What irks me about the climatologists is they continually foster a state of fear for every season. Don't even get me started on earthquake forecasts and models.

I refuse to live in a continual state of fear and handwringing because of alarmists with less experience than a weatherman(or weathergirl) telling me that life is going to end if I/we don't give up our money to the government and East Anglia fabricators.

Some of you are being petty because we disagree, because I and 2.5 billion Christians basically agree with scripture that's been around awhile, way longer than your East Anglia Holy writ which has been debunked as a fabrication. I haven't called any of you names or refused to critique your work. I wouldn't stoop so low. You toss John aside when he departs from poetry into these discussions too. He is a well read, well published, well respected writer. Shame on you. You act like a bunch of high school kids. There is no excuse for it. None.

[Michael Cantor]

My moral superiority sucks, John. What I am relatively proud of is my ability to think things through a bit before trumpeting whatever crosses my mind. It's my semi-rigorous engineering training at work, and has nothing to do with moral superiority.

[W.F. Lantry]

Originally Posted by John Whitworth

Your moral superiority is in excellent shape.

It really must be, with all that exercise it gets. And when I think about all the time some curmudgeon spends muttering in the corner of the pub that people shouldn't be talking about whatever the hell they feel like talking about, it makes me want to order another pint, and giggle some more!

Thanks,

Bill

[John Whitworth]

Oh Michael I like to hear what crosses people's minds. What they think through is much less interesting. We are having an election in l'il' ole England. The politicians have all thought through their positions and the result is utterly dreadful.