[Jayne Osborn]

Hi Anna,

You're truly loyal to Kim, which is a wonderful thing; I would wish for a friend like you if I ever found myself in unfortunate circumstances. But those of us who are intending to go to the West Chester conference are certainly not going out of any disloyalty to Kim; I really must emphasise that. I don't know Kim personally (I met her very briefly in 2012), and I'm only partially aware of what all the trouble is about...

However, John and I have been invited to participate in the conference, and I'm SO looking forward to seeing old friends again. Plus - we have nothing to compare with it over here so the opportunity is immensely appealing.

I find it no mean feat to hop across The Pond. I hate travelling, actually, and had more or less made up my mind that I wouldn't do much from now on... but the lure of the workshops, panels etc, was too much to resist.

I may even make Poetry By The Sea as well - what a bonus that would be, but it depends on the logistics.

I don't have the faintest clue what all the WCU financial skulduggery is about and, to be brutally frank, I don't care, but I do like you and I hope we may have the chance to meet again. Your loyalty to Kim mustn't cloud your judgement of everyone else though, Anna!

As Shaun so wisely said: most people don't attend a conference on the basis of its top administrators, but rather on the merits of its organizers, contributors, panelists, and participants

Jayne

[Catherine Chandler]

people like the rest of you stood around shaking your heads and saying how sad it all was

Anna,

I resent the above.

When the sh*t hit the fan last fall I was one of the first to, yes, shake my head and, yes, say how sad it all was. I also was one of the first to write to the Dean, support Kim on FB and apply to Poetry by the Sea as soon as it was announced.

So have others on this forum.

I also resent your

generally low level of engagement with which Americans are typically prepared to involve themselves in political discourse

Not the Americans I know. And love.

As I said in a previous post, if I can somehow go to either or both conference(s) this year, I will, and not out of any loyalty to one "camp" or another.

Cool it, Anna. You've made your point.

[Anna M Evans]

I confess I am politically frustrated right now with this country, which I generally love, over the recent spate of school shootings (where else in the world would you even write that?) and the apparent impossibility of gun control.

But oh Cathy, if only you could access that level of self-righteous indignation on behalf of Kim Bridgford!

[Terese Coe]

Originally Posted by Catherine Chandler

Anna,

I resent the above.

When the sh*t hit the fan last fall I was one of the first to, yes, shake my head and, yes, say how sad it all was. I also was one of the first to write to the Dean, support Kim on FB and apply to Poetry by the Sea as soon as it was announced.

So have others on this forum.

I also resent your Not the Americans I know. And love.

As I said in a previous post, if I can somehow go to either or both conference(s) this year, I will, and not out of any loyalty to one "camp" or another.

Cool it, Anna. You've made your point.

Well said, Cathy. Thank you for coming out against these broad slurs that do no one any good.

We happen to live in a capitalist system. It has its warts but we work with it and criticize it when it's blatantly unfair. Competition is, in most things, the way of life in the West, but you wouldn't know it from this attitude of "No competition is allowed in my world, and if I see any I will scream bloody murder! And this will not stop till my view is seen as the right view!"

[Andrew Mandelbaum]

I don't have any dogs in this fight. My dogs don't even like conferences, or deans for that matter. But if a conference works over one of your friends and then goes on and reestablishes itself without any public apologies or out loud acknowledgments that what was done was wrong and will be redressed it is odd to then support that same conference. Unless A) you really don't think what was done was wrong, B) you don't care enough to let it affect what is good for you or C) you believe the great good the conference will do outweighs the betrayal your friend may feel

The assumption here is that the conference leash holders wronged a friend of many posting here. I haven't seen anybody pony up and deny this. So onlookers can only assume that is without argument.

I have been involved in a fair amount of lost causes. There is usually an outpouring of involvement at first and then folks pretty much move on. If you can't move in because you looked too close it can feel like a betrayal as the rest of the world forgets and/or acclimates to the norm which is that capital/business/self interest trumps human decency pretty much always. Sometimes it sounds like that is what is happening here.

I think Ned's post above is what reminded me of the similarities here to much larger issues dealing with the State. He said that you couldn't expect the institution to own up to its crimes. I think Anna is agreeing with that and suggesting it can only be forced to do this by confrontation.

Others seem to feel that the conference is so separated and unimportant to the institution that any demands would only mean the loss of the conference and no help making things right. They just resent the implications that attending WC would be a sign of a lessening of their concern for a fellow human done wrongly. From the outside it is hard to imagine attendance without an open apology or something not hurting your friend. Kinda sucks since it sounds like the conference was a home place to so many of you. Tricky business. Seems unlikely that the tricky art of it is being manufactured by Anna. Maybe just the view of it.

[Jayne Osborn]

People have been congratulating Sam on getting the job... and then there are all the marvellous people he's already lined up for the conference, like Rhina, John, Melissa, Frank and Pat Myers (I'm looking forward to meeting her).

None of us can do a thing about what's going on behind the scenes over there. Even Kim is forced into silence because of a pending lawsuit, so what difference would not attending WC make?

We all want to see justice for Kim - and I'm sure we will, ultimately - but we also want to be with our other friends whom we have precious few opportunities to see! Disloyalty doesn't enter into it.

John and I live thousands of miles away and we also have to consider how many more years we've got left where we're fit and able to travel... I hope it's lots, but in case it's not we're going to West Chester in June.

Jayne

[Susan McLean]

I have to say that I side with Ned (and I highly recommend his poem "Leya's Ghostly Cats" in the latest issue of Measure, if you want to read about how institutions actually operate). Kim has been treated very badly, but she has tenure, so she has some protections now. I wish her well in her legal fight. I haven't decided yet which conference to attend, but coming from so far away, it is hard for me to attend both. As I have thought hard about why I attend poetry conferences, I have realized that the draw for me now is less about the faculty, panels, or invited speakers, and more about meeting my friends in the poetry world. I have loved the chance to talk with the poets I have met online and to meet other poets whose work I enjoy. Whatever I do, I do not want to cut myself off from my friends. This situation is pitting some friends against other friends. I don't wish to do anything that will make matters worse. I don't believe that most people have the ability to change much in ways that matter, so if you want to stay friends with them, you have to accept them as they are.

Susan

[Andrew Mandelbaum]

I understand the friend bit. I would rather hang out and laugh with folks around a fire (metaphorical or real) on the fringes of a buzzing conference than most other recreations I can think of. It may be among the best things in the world. And if the only way you can afford to see your people is at the conference you are offered a paying gig at, then it is even more complicated. No easy answers. I guess I just assumed that everyone could see each other at either of those places and dividing a minority subset (formalist) was a bad idea. No matter how much you may wish your scene had energy for multiple venues it seems unlikely for most. WC lost the ball with its bad behaviour. Why not all remain united in one gathering? The obvious one being the place that picked up the discarded ball. I am not asking rhetorical questions. Just actually curious. Is it that WC has the budget to bring in people all the way from UK and the new festival doesn't?
John is rather ancient. And I can honestly appreciate the issue of specific individuals with only one possible campfire to choose from.

Do they let people fly at that age or is a raft involved? Maybe he has already left and is just now leaving the Congo on his way to a rumored land bridge open only to those unsullied by free verse, liberal politics, and automobiles.

Kidding aside, I would like to hear John as a speaker as well. Honest. Too bad such poor administration made such a mess. Bad primates.

I am just thinking aloud here. What do I know? Maybe John is also speaking at Poetry by the Sea and I don't even know it. That would be great. I will go look at the two rosters.

[Jayne Osborn]

You're a cheeky monkey, Andrew
John isn't ancient; he's coming up to 70, which is the new 60, in case you didn't know!

In an ideal world one gathering would be good, but we don't live in an ideal world - and anyway, PBTS and WC are both definitely happening.

I don't understand this ''complicated/no easy answers'' stuff that you mentioned. It's quite simple: There is no reason on this earth why there should be any bad feeling surrounding either event or who goes to which one, ...or even both of them.

Jayne

[Anna M Evans]

Jayne, I do understand that you personally feel somewhat at a remove from the events of last fall, and I have no grudge against you at all for choosing to accept Sam's invitation to chair a panel at West Chester.

But surely you do see that for some of us there are plenty of reasons for bad feeling surrounding the WCU Conference? They mistreated Kim badly, canceled the 2015 conference to conceal possible financial wrongdoing, and are now trying to buy back everyone's goodwill while still refusing to audit the Poetry Center or admit any wrongdoing.

Originally Posted by Jayne Osborn

I don't understand this ''complicated/no easy answers'' stuff that you mentioned. It's quite simple: There is no reason on this earth why there should be any bad feeling surrounding either event or who goes to which one, ...or even both of them.

Jayne