[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

Originally posted by Janet Kenny:
Lo,
We shouldn't talk it up. What individuals do will be done when and where it's opportune.
Janet

That's all very well and good, Janet, but then why bring it up at all?

[Janet Kenny]

Lo, I was interested in the complexity of idea. I don't think it's simple. I think the aim always is at the least to do no harm and at the best to improve things as much as an individual can.

[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

Originally posted by Janet Kenny:
Lo, I was interested in the complexity of idea. I don't think it's simple. I think the aim always is at the least to do no harm and at the best to improve things as much as an individual can.

I think everyone who's replied here is interested in the complexity of idea,, Janet...and that's why we entered into the discussion with you....which is why I'm not sure why you wish to end the discussion - unless it wasn't intended to be a discussion, of course.

I'm still unsure why you feel China is different than the dictatorships you mentioned earlier.....I know you said it was because it was a larger country and because the Chinese people have found such hope in the "acceptance" of being given the games that it would sour the whole population if we expressed our feelings in that way and yet, if you read the articles I linked to, one man alone collected over 10,000 signatures refuting that statement - and got himself thrown in jail for his effort. It's what the government wants you to believe - they've gone to great lengths to make it appear that way ( there is even a long running class going on which is geared to nothing more than making sure that the girls they've picked to appear around the city during the games all learn to smile exactly the same way - with nine teeth showing - not one more, not one less) but, honestly, Janet, if they have to train their citizens to smile, do you really think they're genuinely happy about the whole thing? Do you think those elderly people watching their homes being torn down are finding hope that they've been accepted by the rest of the world?


If you don't wish to discuss it any longer, that's fine - but I do have to say I haven't heard anything which makes me even entertain the idea that not boycotting the games would be beneficial to the Chinese people as a whole.


[This message has been edited by Laura Heidy-Halberstein (edited July 19, 2008).]

[Janet Kenny]

Lo said:

If you don't wish to discuss it any longer, that's fine - but I do have to say I haven't heard anything which makes me even entertain the idea that not boycotting the games would be beneficial to the Chinese people as a whole.

It would make it easy for the powers in China to convince the ordinary Chinese people that the Western countries were enemies of China and hostility would feed on it, and with the help of all those single Chinese males whom Mark mentioned we'd solve their population problem and fuel the profits of the arms industry on both sides. No thanks. Let's hold the Olympics there and let good messages seep through the cracks of authority. Anything else is insane.

I think that present day China is intensely brutal. If you think that it will become less so if we boycott the games at this stage of the arrangements, well let's hope you're right.

I thought America was intensely brutal when it let all those people die in New Orleans. Some things can't just be stopped or turned around.

China was kinder to its earthquake victims.

We can refuse to trade with China and we will all be brought to our knees with unemployment and war and we'll feel morally correct and let's hope that's sufficiently comforting.

You know there is a lot of talent and idealism in China as well and if we force them all into a corner with our moral rectitude there will be no evolution towards better things.

I don't like the Olympic Games no matter where they are held.


I don't have any answers.
Janet



[This message has been edited by Janet Kenny (edited July 20, 2008).]

[Anne Bryant-Hamon]

I thought America was intensely brutal when it let all those people die in New Orleans. Some things can't just be stopped or turned around.

China was kinder to its earthquake victims.

Janet,

That is so sad. And the truth of it is a touchstone of sorts for the condition of the soul of America. It turns out that we are not the beautiful virgin we thought we were and that is hard medicine to swallow when you have been raised all your life on words and lovely phrases telling how grand our nation is, how beautiful we are, how big, how powerful, how beloved and blessed of God, how moral, etc....

No doubt many of us care deeply about the suffering that is ever before our eyes that we are unable to stop. That's tough. But it's the truth. I get mail constantly reminding me of the brutality in Africa and Asia, and all the starving children. And it makes me feel quite depressed at times. But I can only do what I can do, and don't have the power to stop all the suffering of everyone. And all these things certainly cause me to question my faith quite regularly.... how long will it go on... how long will the whole world have to suffer? God knows!

Anne

[Chris Hanson]

Some dictatorships are best avoided simply on the grounds of personal safety. Sometimes, consular assistance can be hard to come by if something happens; standards of medicine may be low; the chance of getting out quickly when something nasty happens may be nil.
Our government is pretty good in issuing travel warnings (for example, Bali occasionally comes up as a possible terrorist target for foreign tourists), so I believe that you pretty-much go at your own risk.

Having said that, some people go out of their way to provide humanitarian assistance in underdeveloped, oppressive countries, often in the face of opposition or obstructionism by the locals.

[Janet Kenny]

Originally posted by Chris Hanson:

Having said that, some people go out of their way to provide humanitarian assistance in underdeveloped, oppressive countries, often in the face of opposition or obstructionism by the locals.

And they are people whom I admire greatly Chris. Of course I didn't mean that. I meant ordinary tourists. Even they can help sometimes.
Janet

[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

What should you expect to find in your China hotel room during the Olympic Games?
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg00652.html

They've also recently changed their VISA policy - and then denied that they'd done so.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...navisas06.html

[Janet Kenny]

BBC REITH LECTURES these lectures about China are worth listening to.

I was thinking more of the actual athletes who attend the games instead of boycotting them. They can be effective.

Australians have found that there are hardly any seats left for them to watch swimming. Nearly all the tickets have been sold to Chinese people.

[Laura Heidy-Halberstein]

Originally posted by Janet Kenny:

I thought America was intensely brutal when it let all those people die in New Orleans. Some things can't just be stopped or turned around.

China was kinder to its earthquake victims.

I'm unsure where you've gotten that information, Janet. I am not arguing that the American government did not drop the ball in New Orleans. - their conduct was inexcusable and I do not attempt to excuse it.

However, China really hasn't reacted much better...they've just done a better job of PR. Their government tends to be a bit more dishonest with the press than ours does.

For instance, did you know that:

Over 68,0000 people died in the China quake - and 18,000 are still missing?

The death toll in New Orleans was 1,836.

Hardly disasters of the same magnitude.

The U.S. and local governments notified the people of New Orleans that a hurricane of large size was approaching - they also warned them (and then, too late, ordered them) to evacuate their homes - the order was largely ignored.

Voluntary and mandatory evacuations were issued for large areas of southeast Louisiana as well as coastal Mississippi and Alabama. About 1.2 million residents of the Gulf Coast were covered under a voluntary or mandatory evacuation order.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina

The Chinese government gave NO warning.

The government did not give a warning that the quake was coming, the way officials did in 1976, when an earthquake virtually destroyed the city of Tangshan, northeast of Beijing, killing at least 240,000 people.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapc...use/index.html

Xinhua also reported complaints from the population that the seismological warnings were coming “too late.” Certainly these reports raise questions about how the seismological bureau was able to give advance warning of the possibility of an aftershock, but not of the far more powerful May 12 earthquake.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/ma...quak-m21.shtml

More than 700,000 people were left with housing due to Hurricane Katrina. The government did not respond immediately but eventually -

FEMA provided housing assistance (rental assistance, trailers, etc.) to more than 700,000 applicants—families and individuals. However, only one-fifth of the trailers requested in Orleans Parish have been supplied, resulting in an enormous housing shortage in the city of New Orleans.[89] To provide for additional housing, FEMA has also paid for the hotel costs of 12,000 individuals and families displaced by Katrina through February 7, 2006, when a final deadline was set for the end of hotel cost coverage. After this deadline, evacuees were still eligible to receive federal assistance, which could be used towards either apartment rent, additional hotel stays, or fixing their ruined homes, although FEMA no longer paid for hotels directly.[90] As of early July 2006, there are still about 100,000 people living in 37,745 FEMA-provided trailers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina

China's earthquake, on the other hand, has left An estimated 5 million people without homes and living in makeshift shelters without adequate supplies.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/ma...chin-m31.shtml

Again, I am not excusing the U.S. government, so please don't think I am. I am simply pointing out the similarities and the differences between the responses of the American government and the Chinese government.

I will not bother linking to the thoughts and statements made by the American people concerning the federal governments response to Katrina - we're all familiar with them.

I will, however, quote a few of the Chinese statements and you can compare the two in your own mind.

(All quote are bolded or italicized}

In addition to the “quake lakes”, dozens of dams have been damaged. Some are leaking, posing additional risks. These projects were often built in a rush with an eye to quick profits from China’s growing demand for power, rather than based on careful, scientific planning.

One water resource official told Agence France-Press that the response at the local government level is slow. “Sometimes local governments think that evacuation is too much trouble, and they’re betting it won’t really be necessary, because they’re not sure how big the risk might be”, the official said.

The unleashing of “market reform” over the past two decades in China has severely undermined local government authorities and any coordination with central authorities. Cities, towns and regions are in a frantic competition against one another for investment. Local governments often cover up natural disasters, environmental problems or health threats to avoid footing the costs and prevent any disruption to production.

Chinese Communist Party (CCP) officials have absurdly claimed in recent days that the relief effort has demonstrated “the efficiency of socialism”. In reality, the anarchic operation of the capitalist market in China has severely compromised the coordination of relief operations and the provision of essential services. During the “snow havoc” earlier this year, state power companies for instance refused to cooperate and created deliberate brownouts, in order to pressure authorities to remove electricity price caps that cut into profits.

But the mobilisation of top leaders such as Premier Wen is part of a PR campaign designed to paper over serious deficiencies in the relief effort in order to placate public opinion and reassure foreign investors that the state machinery can handle such emergencies. Just below the surface, the inadequacies are evident.

Refugees who have turned up at hospitals on their own—will have only part of their expenses reimbursed, or none at all. They have to show an ID card and a “refugee certificate”, but in many cases ID cards were lost or destroyed in the disaster.

The CCP is deeply concerned that the earthquake has exposed the glaringly corrupt and incompetent character of its bureaucratic regime.

Internet reports accusing local officials of corruption in handling aid have led to protests.

There is widespread resentment in Sichuan over the shoddy construction of building, particularly schools, which led to many deaths.

As in other parts of China, it is not so much ignorance, but the drive for profit by developers and local government that is responsible for the flouting of building codes and their limited safety requirements.

Pictures of Jiang on his knees, pleading with the people, caused a sensation in China where local party bosses are notorious as tyrants. As with the personal presence of Premier Wen and President Hu Jintao in the quake areas, CCP officials are learning to use media spin. But that is only half the story. When the crowd of protestors surged, they clashed with police, injuring some parents. In other words, in the final analysis, the regime still relies on police-state measures.

The Financial Times noted on May 29 that ordinary people so far have been blaming only local officials for incompetence, indifference and corruption. There are still illusions that the “just emperor” at the top of the bureaucracy is genuinely concerned for the victims. “Such a belief is reinforced by government media controls that ensure people see little of their leaders’ human failings but are granted blanket coverage of their labours on behalf of the masses,” the article stated.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/ma...chin-m31.shtml

Over 4.8 million people have been made homeless. Vice-Minister for Civil Affairs Jiang Li told reporters, “Despite generous donations, the disaster is so great that victims still face a challenge in finding living accommodations.” So far 278,000 tents have been sent to the quake zones, with 700,000 more ordered and factories working triple shifts to meet demand.

Do the math on that one!!


Officials have announced limited financial assistance to some quake victims. The Finance and Civil Affairs ministries will together provide to each homeless quake victim who lacks an income a daily subsidy of 10 yuan—roughly half the minimum wage in Sichuan province—and 500 grams of food for three months, starting from late May. Orphans, widowed elders with no children and handicapped persons who lost relatives will receive another monthly subsidy of 600 yuan for three months.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/ma...quak-m21.shtml

That's three months of aid - as opposed to the fact that America is still helping Katrina victims several years later.


In other words, I fail to see much difference between the U.S. governmental responses to Katrina and the Chinese government's response to the earthquake. Or much difference in the people's perspective or complaints. Or the type of comfort and aid offered.




[This message has been edited by Laura Heidy-Halberstein (edited July 20, 2008).]